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Thread: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

  1. #351
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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Given time and the right case, plus a few more states legalizing same sex marriage, I have every belief that they will strike down these laws.
    I think eventually society will change enough that the Supreme Court will do that. Given the tack taken by the Supreme Court in the past, that will happen 20-40 years from now.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Here's the real dilemma facing the Supreme Court regarding Gay Marriage:

    Society is moving toward allowing it. But if the Supreme court makes it an issue of rights based on people loving each other being able to marry, then challenges for polygamy and incest will have something very solid to go on. If, on the other hand, legislatures define marriage based on what the people think is right, then eventually public opinion will result in the public's will being the law. There is no rationalization for gay marriage in terms of constitutional rights that wouldn't end up being support for other deviant relationship models as marriage, as well, so the Supreme Court rightfully recognizes that it's playing with fire on this issue and prefers, as much as possible, not to touch it.
    I disagree totally. There is no connection between gay marriage and polygamy or incest. And there is no public outcry or support for those things either. You might as well say that since we allow murder in war soon people will want the right to murder anytime.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Here's the real dilemma facing the Supreme Court regarding Homosexual Marriage:

    Society is moving toward allowing it. But if the Supreme court makes it an issue of rights based on people loving each other being able to marry, then challenges for polygamy and incest will have something very solid to go on. If, on the other hand, legislatures define marriage based on what the people think is right, then eventually public opinion will result in the public's will being the law. There is no rationalization for gay marriage in terms of constitutional rights that wouldn't end up being support for other deviant relationship models as marriage, as well, so the Supreme Court rightfully recognizes that it's playing with fire on this issue and prefers, as much as possible, not to touch it.
    And your problem here is that it would not be an issue of rights based on people loving each other being able to marry, but rather on what is already established in the fact that restrictions in laws must be shown to further a state interest. This is not, nor has it been, about why same sex couples should be allowed to marry, but rather what interest the state has in preventing them from getting married and how that interest is exactly furthered in the restriction.

    This same thing is true for each individual restriction and each individual state interest being furthered in each restriction.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #354
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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    I disagree totally. There is no connection between gay marriage and polygamy or incest. And there is no public outcry or support for those things either. You might as well say that since we allow murder in war soon people will want the right to murder anytime.
    If the legal argument for gay marriage is that the state can't deprive people of the right to marry someone they love based on merely societal standards, tradition and an arbitrary assignment of marriage definition, then you've opened up everything. You may not see it, but I guarantee you the Supreme Court Justices are all aware of this.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I think eventually society will change enough that the Supreme Court will do that. Given the tack taken by the Supreme Court in the past, that will happen 20-40 years from now.
    I believe it will be much sooner, since it is likely that we will reach half the states having legalized same sex marriage within the next decade or sooner.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    If the legal argument for gay marriage is that the state can't deprive people of the right to marry someone they love based on merely societal standards, tradition and an arbitrary assignment of marriage definition, then you've opened up everything. You may not see it, but I guarantee you the Supreme Court Justices are all aware of this.
    Who says there are no societal standards for marriage now? The standards have changed to include gays because it is the right thing to do. Do you think allowing incest and polygamy is the right thing to do? You would have a hard time convincing many that those are behaviors that we could embrace. A majority of Americans believe gays should have the right to marry.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    How so? Are you assuming that both marriages are heterosexual?

    By the Gay rights argument what right does the government have to say that a wife can't also marry a woman? It would seem that these "marriage is between two people" laws are discriminating against bisexuals!
    The arguments are not dependent on why a group deserves equal protection, but rather what state interest is being furthered in a restriction. The Constitution applies to the state, not the people, so the state has to justify their restrictions, the people do not have to justify their rights.

    You are also failing in your evaluation of bisexuals. Bisexuals are absolutely no less likely to be monogamous than heterosexuals or homosexuals.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And your problem here is that it would not be an issue of rights based on people loving each other being able to marry, but rather on what is already established in the fact that restrictions in laws must be shown to further a state interest.
    If the criteria is that a restriction must be justified by a compelling state interest, then what is the compelling state interest for restricting marriage to two people? Why not a man and two women? Why not father and daughter as long as the father has a vasectomy or the woman has her tubes tied? The argument of gay marriage is, IN FACT, that their right to marry the person they love is being denied because the relationship doesn't fit the accepted model. Well, plural marriage and incest marriages also don't fit the model and their rights to marry the people they love are being similarly restricted.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Who says there are no societal standards for marriage now? The standards have changed to include gays because it is the right thing to do. Do you think allowing incest and polygamy is the right thing to do?
    Thank you. That's exactly what I'm trying to communicate here. If society changes their laws because they are compelled to decide they are the right thing to do, they may continue to exclude polygamy and incest and other deviant models. If the supreme court forces gay marriage based on some "right to marry" rationale; then the discretion of "the state" no longer applies and arguments about other relationships as marriage have legal support.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Well, if refuting is the same as conceding in your world, I can see where you are having all these problems.
    You didn't refute anything. You conceded the point.

    So not using the term means the term is in there. Well done!
    Why didn't you quote what Kennedy said? Gay Marriage is not about "Marriage Equality" now? First you claim gays aren't really gay, now you're claiming that the SSM movement has never been about marriage equality

    Prove it. Bet you can't.
    Prove that it was removed because of scientific reasons. Bet you can't.

    There is no known gay gene. There is possibly a gene or more likely a set of genes that impact orientation, but that is conjecture at this point. Saying there is no gay gene however is unsupportable with current science.
    The facts there is no gay gene IS current science. No gay gene has been found.

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