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Thread: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

  1. #1071
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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Sure they do. Unless you can point out the moment in time that marriage ran off the road into the ditch, you absolutely have to accept as relevant what marriage has been when arguing what it currently is. The real crux of the matter is that you and those like you don't accept what marriage actually is and that is why you are trying to change and redefine it.
    Problem is you are holding onto an incorrect premise... that the purpose of marriage is about procreation. This has been shown to be incorrect time and time again, and the reason why your arguments do not hold any water is because you start them off with that false premise.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    That's a stupid question. To presume that I must support an argument merely because I am able to tell you that it was made is silly and that this silliness was intentional means you attempted to ply a sophomoric dishonest debate trick.



    As I've argued in the past and must explain to you, now... the fact that procreation was always integral to the purpose of marriage is not to say that procreation is a CONDITION of marriage. It has always been enough that couples be of male and female, which makes biological sense. It is, however, interesting to note that my wife tells me that years ago in Ireland they took it a step farther to actually ask you if you were planning to have children with an affirmative answer required in order to get approval for the marriage.
    Your false premise has been shown to be incorrect REPEATEDLY. It has zero legal standing in the sanctioning of marriage. THAT'S the issue. If you are going to argue against the legality of SSM from a procreation standpoint, you MUST demonstrate that procreation IS a requirement for marriage. If you cannot... and it has been proven repeatedly that you cannot, this is a failed position... which it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Problem is you are holding onto an incorrect premise... that the purpose of marriage is about procreation. This has been shown to be incorrect time and time again, and the reason why your arguments do not hold any water is because you start them off with that false premise.
    This is not a matter of fact but opinion and I think the reasonable opinion is that marriage was created for the same of raising families, I.e, procreation. Let's face reality, here. Without marriage there wouldn't be many men sticking around to support children. The purpose of marriage was to bind the man and woman together for this purpose. If you want to argue that the purpose has changed, at least you will have a legitimate track but to argue that marriage is not procreation is an argument of weak opinion rather than the fact you claim it to be.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    It all goes to flesh out the understanding of the real purpose of marriage and it was always related to families, bringing children into the world and then supporting those children in a stable environment.
    Since this is not now nor has it every been an accurate LEGAL argument, it falls into the appeal to tradition fallacy.

    There are two different arguments here, and you are trying to combine the two.

    1) The LEGAL purpose for marriage as identified by applications and laws/legal decisions.
    2) The philosophical purpose for marriage.

    These two arguments are not dependent on each other. Let me demonstrate. Let's say that you are correct... that in the past a philosophical purpose for marriage WAS procreation. This is not reflective in ANY legal requirement, law, or point on an application. This is why the two arguments do not connect and have nothing to do with each other, even though you want them too.

    From what we can see and what has been debated, the answer to the first argument is "no, procreation is not a requirement for marriage", and the answer to the second argument is "claiming that procreation has always been a purpose for marriage is an appeal to tradition logical fallacy as you cannot argue that just because something was always done a certain way, that makes it right".

    There. I have boiled down the entire discussion into a short, concise description. It also shows why your position is neither factual (point #1) nor logical (point #2). I'm CERTAIN you neither like this, nor will you accept this, but it doesn't alter the fact that it is accurate and you have been been unable to refute it... and will BE unable to refute it from either a factual or logical perspective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    More on the fact that arguments to try to create gay marriage also open the doors to things like polygamy:



    Slate: 'Marriage Equality' Includes Polygamy

    And the link to the Slate article:

    Legalize polygamy: Marriage equality for all. - Slate Magazine

    I think it's time for people who want to force homosexual marriage in all 50 states to stop arguing that it wouldn't pave the way to polygamy but to take the more honest approach and admit they don't care if it does.
    Slippery slope logical fallacy because of a false equivalency. I think it's time for all those who are professing your position to take a more honest approach and admit that they are just using an illogical "scare" tactic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    This is not a matter of fact but opinion and I think the reasonable opinion is that marriage was created for the same of raising families, I.e, procreation. Let's face reality, here. Without marriage there wouldn't be many men sticking around to support children. The purpose of marriage was to bind the man and woman together for this purpose. If you want to argue that the purpose has changed, at least you will have a legitimate track but to argue that marriage is not procreation is an argument of weak opinion rather than the fact you claim it to be.
    Please note that you are using the word "was" and I am using the word "is". This is an important distinction that alters what we are discussing and how it is being discussed.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    CC, the laws governing marriage don't explain what marriage is in place for and don't need to. But the purpose of marriage IS critical to any argument hinging on a claim that homosexual marriage advances the purpose. State sanctioned marriage IS in place for a purpose. There IS a reason why we created this entity and it is, in fact, a legal entity, at least in some states. What you are trying to do is pound a square peg into a round hole with a hammer of ignorance that pretends the hole has no shape.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    CC, the laws governing marriage don't explain what marriage is in place for and don't need to. But the purpose of marriage IS critical to any argument hinging on a claim that homosexual marriage advances the purpose. State sanctioned marriage IS in place for a purpose. There IS a reason why we created this entity and it is, in fact, a legal entity, at least in some states. What you are trying to do is pound a square peg into a round hole with a hammer of ignorance that pretends the hole has no shape.
    Two separate issues that are not dependent on each other. I gave a pretty clear explanation with an example. And the purpose of marriage is important only in the sense of what the purpose of marriage IS, not WAS. What I am doing is noticing that there are TWO holes, a round one and a square one, and am putting the appropriate peg in each.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #1079
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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Two separate issues that are not dependent on each other. I gave a pretty clear explanation with an example. And the purpose of marriage is important only in the sense of what the purpose of marriage IS, not WAS. What I am doing is noticing that there are TWO holes, a round one and a square one, and am putting the appropriate peg in each.
    We only know what marriage WAS because we're in process of deconstructing it so that it can become something that homosexuals can claim should be an institution for them, as well. My argument is that there isn't compelling evidence that what it WAS is not constitutional and, therefore, is not required to be changed.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    We only know what marriage WAS because we're in process of deconstructing it so that it can become something that homosexuals can claim should be an institution for them, as well. My argument is that there isn't compelling evidence that what it WAS is not constitutional and, therefore, is not required to be changed.
    You're doing it again. Confusing the two issues. What marriage WAS, LEGALLY, has nothing to do with procreation. Therefore, prohibition certainly was unconstitutional.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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