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Thread: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    You forgot to add "in my opinion" at the end of the first sentence because without that, it is a statement of fact and in most states, that is NOT a fact, which renders your rebuttal invalid.
    If you cannot prove that all gay households do not fit the definition for marriage, you are done. That's why the anti-SSM is losing and will continue to lose this battle. Is funny watching the anti-SSM crowd lose.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Hmmm let's see. Gay people can raise children that straight people don't want, check. They love each other, check. Capability of providing a healthy home, check.

    Yep, it fits the definition, purpose and meaning of marriage. Next?
    And being unmarried doesn't keep them from raising children "straight people" don't want. If that's a problem somewhere, fix that. The fact that homosexuals can adopt children isn't proof that two homosexuals living together is a marriage.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    You forgot to add "in my opinion" at the end of the first sentence because without that, it is a statement of fact and in most states, that is NOT a fact, which renders your rebuttal invalid.
    No. Legally all those things are true. It is not just my opinion. If you disagree, show me legally where same sex couples do not fit the legal description of how marriage operates. Show me where the legal purpose of marriage is written down for every legally married couple and how couples that don't fit that purpose cannot enter into marriage. They already fit the meaning. That isn't even possible to argue because whether you like it or not, marriage already includes same sex couples within its meaning.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And being unmarried doesn't keep them from raising children "straight people" don't want. If that's a problem somewhere, fix that. The fact that homosexuals can adopt children isn't proof that two homosexuals living together is a marriage.
    It meets the definition, purpose, and meaning of Marriage. You are losing this battle. Deal with that fact.

    It gives me great pleasure seeing the anti-SSM crowd losing.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And being unmarried doesn't keep them from raising children "straight people" don't want. If that's a problem somewhere, fix that. The fact that homosexuals can adopt children isn't proof that two homosexuals living together is a marriage.
    If marriage helps children raised by their own parents, then it is only reasonable that it also helps children raised by parents that adopt them or get them from other means.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Again.... that may be your OPINION, but it is not a fact. Property rights were put in place for the purpose of dealing with divorce. Marriage is about putting together a family and that family was expected to include offspring. "Property" doesn't even come into play until there's a divorce and divorce was very rare up until the 19th century. In Ireland, divorce wasn't even a legal option until the 1990's. Clearly, marriage was for other things than sorting out "divorce" and those other things were raising families.
    Those laws are no longer in place, so they have no relevant place in the discussion of what marriage is today. It doesn't matter why something existed or was how it was. What matters is why it is the way it is now.

    Allowing divorce for pretty much any reason is currently an option in most civilized, 1st world nations. And this is supported by most people, even if they don't approve of so many getting divorced.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Those laws are no longer in place, so they have no relevant place in the discussion of what marriage is today.
    Sure they do. Unless you can point out the moment in time that marriage ran off the road into the ditch, you absolutely have to accept as relevant what marriage has been when arguing what it currently is. The real crux of the matter is that you and those like you don't accept what marriage actually is and that is why you are trying to change and redefine it.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Sure they do. Unless you can point out the moment in time that marriage ran off the road into the ditch, you absolutely have to accept as relevant what marriage has been when arguing what it currently is. The real crux of the matter is that you and those like you don't accept what marriage actually is and that is why you are trying to change and redefine it.
    Marriage hasn't "ran off the road into the ditch". I find it to be a much more desirable option now than it would have been in the past. In the past, I would have been considered the property of my father, and then my husband. I would have had very little say in whether I married or who or even when. I could have been forced to marry someone who raped me in certain points of the past. I could have even been forced to marry my brother in law or relatives in certain situations. In the recent past, I would have been treated as less than my husband, my opinion and feelings less important than his. I would have been forced to remain in a marriage that was neglectful or abusive or, if granted the divorce, treated horribly and expected to only aspire to a few limited number of careers. I would have not been able to claim my husband raped me if he did in most states until around the 1970s.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Marriage hasn't "ran off the road into the ditch". I find it to be a much more desirable option now than it would have been in the past. In the past, I would have been considered the property of my father, and then my husband. I would have had very little say in whether I married or who or even when. I could have been forced to marry someone who raped me in certain points of the past. I could have even been forced to marry my brother in law or relatives in certain situations. In the recent past, I would have been treated as less than my husband, my opinion and feelings less important than his. I would have been forced to remain in a marriage that was neglectful or abusive or, if granted the divorce, treated horribly and expected to only aspire to a few limited number of careers. I would have not been able to claim my husband raped me if he did in most states until around the 1970s.
    And yet, marriage didn't have to be redefined into some freak charicature of the standard male/female socially endorsed family relationship in order for women to have equal rights. So what's your argument here, then? Do you figure women will magically get even more equality once homosexuals can marry? (yeah, that was an oxymoron on two counts). Marriage is still essentially what it's always been; one man and one woman coming together to form a union. The roles and expectations of those roles have changed but the relationship model hasn't changed at all.... Until now, that is.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Sure they do. Unless you can point out the moment in time that marriage ran off the road into the ditch, you absolutely have to accept as relevant what marriage has been when arguing what it currently is. The real crux of the matter is that you and those like you don't accept what marriage actually is and that is why you are trying to change and redefine it.
    I agree. I made the same argument back in the 60s against interracial marriage. Historically blacks never could marry whites. That is what marriage was--within the same race. And I was called racist for saying blacks shouldn't be able to marry whites? Absurd, right?

    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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