Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

Papa bull said:

People don't go to prison for having a dog without a license. This is a strawman argument. The fact that marriage gave permission and approval by society for a couple to start a family does not and did not mean that you can't have as many bastards as you would like or that you go to prison for doing it. Is have thought reasonably intelligent people would understand this. I am thinking this is more just the dishonest argumentation that is a defining characteristic of the progressives than it is stupidity, though. I don't think anyone capable of logging onto a computer is too stupid to understand this.

I will add one thing as an aside. Those ignorant mouthpieces among you that want to rant about haters and call anyone that opposes homosexual marriage a bigot merely harden the position against it. After all the venom I've seen from the pinko left after this, I'll go out of my way to vote against it. Funny that I never was a hater but all the name-calling, vitriol and nastiness from the punk left may end up making it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone that disagrees with the progressive agenda today gets called a racist, bigot and hater. And every time that happens, the chasm between the right and left widens. It makes it damned hard to be sympathetic to "the cause".

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The far right says that same sex marriage supporters are destroying the country and are going to burn in eternal hell. Is it really wise to let extremists dictate views? How should I respond to those kinds of condemnations?

You reveal your bias when you acknowledge the extremists of only one side of the debate.

Papa bull said:

People don't go to prison for having a dog without a license. This is a strawman argument. The fact that marriage gave permission and approval by society for a couple to start a family does not and did not mean that you can't have as many bastards as you would like or that you go to prison for doing it. Is have thought reasonably intelligent people would understand this. I am thinking this is more just the dishonest argumentation that is a defining characteristic of the progressives than it is stupidity, though. I don't think anyone capable of logging onto a computer is too stupid to understand this.

I will add one thing as an aside. Those ignorant mouthpieces among you that want to rant about haters and call anyone that opposes homosexual marriage a bigot merely harden the position against it. After all the venom I've seen from the pinko left after this, I'll go out of my way to vote against it. Funny that I never was a hater but all the name-calling, vitriol and nastiness from the punk left may end up making it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone that disagrees with the progressive agenda today gets called a racist, bigot and hater. And every time that happens, the chasm between the right and left widens. It makes it damned hard to be sympathetic to "the cause".

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Interestingly enough, all of the stupidity and bigotry that has been spewed from the extreme RIGHT on this issue has helped me to be pushed closer and close to supporting SSM as fully as possible over the years. I never used to really be disgusted by positions on the extreme right, but when I see posts like the above, those that present a lack of logic and/or distortion or ignoring of facts just to present a biased, moralistic, attacking agenda, makes me realize that extremists on the right really need to be defeated. They tyranny that they present, ESPECIALLY when based on ignorance of issues is quite possibly the most dangerous thing to our country.

CaptainCourtesy said:

You do not know the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. This is a major reason why your arguments keep failing. Sexual orientation is a state of being. Sexual behaviors are ACTIONS. Firstly, one is a noun and the other is a verb. Secondly, sexual behaviors that gays do, straights can do... and do. You cannot define someone by their sexual behaviors, only by their orientation. There, now you know. Hopefully, this will assist you in not making this error again.

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I know homosexuals want everyone to believe it's a state of being... a virtual "race" of sorts. However, homosexuality is having sex with someone that is of the same sex. That's what a homosexual is. A child molestor is someone that molests children. A person can think about it without being a child molestor. It's the behavior that defines them just as it does a homosexual. Nothing BUT behavior makes someone a homosexual. Except for lusting after and/or having sex with someone of the same sex, one is not a homosexual and both of those things are behaviors.

CriticalThought said:

The far right says that same sex marriage supporters are destroying the country and are going to burn in eternal hell. Is it really wise to let extremists dictate views? How should I respond to those kinds of condemnations?

You reveal your bias when you acknowledge the extremists of only one side of the debate.

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I am definitely biased. I was on the fence and quite ambivalent about it for some time. Every time I hear homosexual advocates accuse everyone who disagrees with them of being a hater and a bigot, it just hardens the issue for me. I'm not on the fence any more. I'm glad this state not only doesn't allow homosexual marriage but forbids civil unions or anything resembling them and won't recognize them in this or any other state. I'm guessing the politicians that signed that amendment to the state constitution into law got called haters and bigots a few times too many, too. I'd sign the damned thing with blood because the left has made it a cultural war. So screw 'em. You'll probably win the war eventually, but it'll take years and you'll have to spend millions and even billions in court cases to finally get a case before judges demented enough to let you have your way. But it won't be soon. You were a lot more sympathetic when you were pretending to just be poor souls deprived of rights instead of making it clear that you are just a bunch of punk-ass activists badmouthing and condemning everyone with a different opinion than your own.

Papa bull said:

I know homosexuals want everyone to believe it's a state of being... a virtual "race" of sorts. However, homosexuality is having sex with someone that is of the same sex. That's what a homosexual is.

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No it isn't. That's homosexual BEHAVIOR. Homosexuality is not an act. Orientation is a noun, not a verb.

A child molestor is someone that molests children. A person can think about it without being a child molestor. It's the behavior that defines them just as it does a homosexual.

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A child molester is someone who molests children. A homosexual is one that is attracted to someone of the same sex. That does NOT mean they act on this attraction. You are confusing terms.

Nothing BUT behavior makes someone a homosexual. Except for lusting after and/or having sex with someone of the same sex, one is not a homosexual and both of those things are behaviors.

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As I have shown, this of course is completely incorrect, no matter how badly you want it to be.

CaptainCourtesy said:

No it isn't. That's homosexual BEHAVIOR. Homosexuality is not an act. Orientation is a noun, not a verb.



A child molester is someone who molests children. A homosexual is one that is attracted to someone of the same sex. That does NOT mean they act on this attraction. You are confusing terms.



As I have shown, this of course is completely incorrect, no matter how badly you want it to be.

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Your spin on this is noted. Thanks for sharing.

Papa bull said:

Yes. Unlike homosexuals, we don't define our very existence and being by our sexual preference. We don't state heterosexual pride parades to draw attention to the wonderfulness that is us. We don't walk around with gay pride shirts on. We don't feel the need to make sure every person we run into knows we go for the opposite sex whether they like it or not.

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Well, while it is true heterosexuals do not need to engage in "pride parades" we do display our pride in many other obvious ways.

Through advertising media displaying and emphasizing same sex relationships when selling products or expressing social and political ideals; harangues during religious and political events stressing the importance of marriage and family and condemning that “other” expression of loving relationships; requiring solo attendance if you are not bringing an opposite sex partner to proms; condoning public acts that attempt to degrade and humiliate gays; etc., etc. etc.

We don’t need to display pride because it is a natural outgrowth of our social dominance and occurs in everything we do on a daily basis.

Papa bull said:

To heterosexuals, it's not a "state of being". We just engage the opposite sex and that's that. Homosexuals lust after people of the same sex. Heterosexuals don't. The difference is behavior.

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That's a rather circular argument. "They lust after people of the same sex. Heterosexuals don't" (i.e. we lust after people of the opposite sex.) "The difference is behavior." In what way? Both groups are exhibiting "lust," therefore, in accordance with your premises, BOTH are exhibiting behavior.

Your argument lacks essential merit, it is illogical.

Papa bull said:

Your spin on this is noted. Thanks for sharing.

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Your denial of reality and of the definition of terms is noted. Thanks for sharing.

Captain Adverse said:

Well, while it is true heterosexuals do not need to engage in "pride parades" we do display our pride in many other obvious ways.

Through advertising media displaying and emphasizing same sex relationships when selling products or expressing social and political ideals; harangues during religious and political events stressing the importance of marriage and family and condemning that “other” expression of loving relationships; requiring solo attendance if you are not bringing an opposite sex partner to proms; condoning public acts that attempt to degrade and humiliate gays; etc., etc. etc.

We don’t need to display pride because it is a natural outgrowth of our social dominance and occurs in everything we do on a daily basis.




That's a rather circular argument. "They lust after people of the same sex. Heterosexuals don't" (i.e. we lust after people of the opposite sex.) "The difference is behavior." In what way? Both groups are exhibiting "lust," therefore, in accordance with your premises, BOTH are exhibiting behavior.

Your argument lacks essential merit, it is illogical.

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According to your argument vegans and carnivores are the same because they both eat. It is the act of eating ONLY meat or ONLY vegetables that distinguishes one from the other. They are defined by their behavior. So are homosexuals.

Papa bull said:

According to your argument vegans and carnivores are the same because they both eat. It is the act of eating ONLY meat or ONLY vegetables that distinguishes one from the other. They are defined by their behavior. So are homosexuals.

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According to YOUR argument, heterosexuals are also defined by their behavior. If you are going to make an illogical and incorrect argument, I hope you will at least be consistent with it.

CaptainCourtesy said:

Your denial of reality and of the definition of terms is noted. Thanks for sharing.

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Thank you for sharing your "You are but what am I" snappy comeback. Pee-Wee Herman would be proud of you.

Papa bull said:

Thank you for sharing your "You are but what am I" snappy comeback. Pee-Wee Herman would be proud of you.

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I'm sorry that you don't like being called on your inaccuracies. There is a simple solution to that problem. Stop being inaccurate. Otherwise, I will continue to point out when you are wrong... which seems to be a lot.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I'm sorry that you don't like being called on your inaccuracies. There is a simple solution to that problem. Stop being inaccurate. Otherwise, I will continue to point out when you are wrong... which seems to be a lot.

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You are confused. You seem to think things are just whatever you say they are just because... well, because you say so. The cuteness of that wears off quickly.

Papa bull said:

According to your argument vegans and carnivores are the same because they both eat. It is the act of eating ONLY meat or ONLY vegetables that distinguishes one from the other. They are defined by their behavior. So are homosexuals.

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Again circular logic... Homosexuals ONLY lust for the same sex, heterosexuals ONLY lust for the opposite sex...they are defined by their behavior identified as "lust." Unless you are claiming heterosexuals lust for both sexes you are showing no difference in behaviors.

Can't you see the basic fallacy of your (repeated) argument? What are you trying to prove, merely the already accepted fact they are different in their sexual activities? Does not make them non-human.

Papa bull said:

You are confused. You seem to think things are just whatever you say they are just because... well, because you say so. The cuteness of that wears off quickly.

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I know... it must suck for you to be called out on being wrong so often. Here's a good blueprint for you to understand this issue a bit better. First, learn the difference between the terms "sexual orientation" and "sexual behavior". For some odd reason, this seems to be quite the confusing concept for many on your side of the issue. I think it's denial and dishonesty, but I might be wrong. It might be an actual confusion on what those terms mean. Your next step would be to understand the many ways that procreation can occur, and the concept of "if the equipment works, then an individual can procreate". You can then, by combining these two concepts, understand the nature of marriage and realize why everything you have posted thus far is both factually and logically incorrect. This will help you to be wrong less often, henceforth, allowing you to be called out on being wrong less often. There. Glad I could help.

Captain Adverse said:

Again circular logic... Homosexuals ONLY lust for the same sex, heterosexuals ONLY lust for the opposite sex...they are defined by their behavior identified as "lust." Unless you are claiming heterosexuals lust for both sexes you are showing no difference in behaviors.

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More disingenuous argumentation. Is it the same behavior for a cocker spaniel to hump another cocker spaniel or your leg? No. Crying for happiness and crying for joy are not the same behavior. Lusting after people of the same sex is one behavior and lusting after people of a different sex is a different behavior. If your argument is that lust is lust and sex is sex, then you must be bisexual because your mindset seems to swing both ways and can't tell the difference between one sex and another. Take away the behavioral aspect and it is impossible to tell a homosexual from a heterosexual. And that's to be expected since the defining characteristic of both is merely behavior. It's not hair color. It's not height or skin color. It's not religion. The only common denominator among homosexuals is sexual behavior.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I know... it must suck for you to be called out on being wrong so often. Here's a good blueprint for you to understand this issue a bit better. First, learn the difference between the terms "sexual orientation" and "sexual behavior". For some odd reason, this seems to be quite the confusing concept for many on your side of the issue. I think it's denial and dishonesty, but I might be wrong. It might be an actual confusion on what those terms mean. Your next step would be to understand the many ways that procreation can occur, and the concept of "if the equipment works, then an individual can procreate". You can then, by combining these two concepts, understand the nature of marriage and realize why everything you have posted thus far is both factually and logically incorrect. This will help you to be wrong less often, henceforth, allowing you to be called out on being wrong less often. There. Glad I could help.

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Your bias is showing. You might want to tuck it in a bit. Sexual orientation is defined by behavior. If you attempt to become intimate with people of the same sex, you are homosexual. Even thinking is a behavior. If you THINK you want to have sex with others of the same sex, you might very well also be homosexual, but again, it's the behavior that defines you. It is your sexual orientation and that is defined by behavior.

Papa bull said:

More disingenuous argumentation. Is it the same behavior for a cocker spaniel to hump another cocker spaniel or your leg? No. Crying for happiness and crying for joy are not the same behavior. Lusting after people of the same sex is one behavior and lusting after people of a different sex is a different behavior. If your argument is that lust is lust and sex is sex, then you must be bisexual because your mindset seems to swing both ways and can't tell the difference between one sex and another. Take away the behavioral aspect and it is impossible to tell a homosexual from a heterosexual. And that's to be expected since the defining characteristic of both is merely behavior. It's not hair color. It's not height or skin color. It's not religion. The only common denominator among homosexuals is sexual behavior.

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Wrong. The defining concept is attraction. Acting on that attraction is irrelevant. This is another example of the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Here's another: someone who is heterosexual can engage in sexual behavior with someone of the same sex and still be heterosexual.

Getting the difference, yet?

Papa bull said:

Your bias is showing. You might want to tuck it in a bit. Sexual orientation is defined by behavior.

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Your lack of understanding of the terms is showing. You might want to read up on them to understand them better. I do find it interesting that you haven't realized how completely wrong you have been proven... even with all of the examples provided for you. I suppose that's what bias does.

Papa bull said:

More disingenuous argumentation. Is it the same behavior for a cocker spaniel to hump another cocker spaniel or your leg? No. Crying for happiness and crying for joy are not the same behavior. Lusting after people of the same sex is one behavior and lusting after people of a different sex is a different behavior. If your argument is that lust is lust and sex is sex, then you must be bisexual because your mindset seems to swing both ways and can't tell the difference between one sex and another. Take away the behavioral aspect and it is impossible to tell a homosexual from a heterosexual. And that's to be expected since the defining characteristic of both is merely behavior. It's not hair color. It's not height or skin color. It's not religion. The only common denominator among homosexuals is sexual behavior.

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Despite that reply you miss my point about your argument. The question remains, what point are you trying to make in emphasizing this difference vis a vis gay marriage?

Papa bull said:

I know homosexuals want everyone to believe it's a state of being... a virtual "race" of sorts. However, homosexuality is having sex with someone that is of the same sex. That's what a homosexual is. A child molestor is someone that molests children. A person can think about it without being a child molestor. It's the behavior that defines them just as it does a homosexual. Nothing BUT behavior makes someone a homosexual. Except for lusting after and/or having sex with someone of the same sex, one is not a homosexual and both of those things are behaviors.

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orientation is not behavior.

Captain Adverse said:

Despite that reply you miss my point about your argument. No one disputes there is a difference in "behavior." The question remains, what point are you trying to make in emphasizing this difference vis a vis gay marriage?

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Thank you for being honest about the behavior being the difference. My point is that the equal rights argument doesn't fly for groups defined entirely by their behavior and that governments can, in fact, discriminate against behavior. This is an argument that homosexuals need to win by winning the hearts of people not by speciously arguing that it's an "equal rights" issue and that anyone that opposes them is a hate-filled bigot. Unfortunately that seems to be the tack, though.

I think Americans want to be sympathetic. I think if you fall in love with someone from another country, you should be able to go through proper channels to get them here and be with them even if you are a homosexual. I think you should be able to visit a lover in the hospital even if you are a homosexual. I think if your lover dies, you should have normal inheritance that any spouse would have. Civil Unions with all the rights of marriage would have solved that problem and given those that consider marriage a fundamental and basic building block of society some respect to their beliefs. Instead it's "eff-you" and "you are a hating bigot" and "you must have wanted blacks to drink from separate water fountains".

Which brings me back to the opinion that they can kiss my ass and I'd rather eat dirt than throw my support toward gay marriage or even civil unions because when all is said and done, the gay activist community has proven that it's not about civil rights at all. That was just the angle they agreed to take.

captainawesome said:

orientation is not behavior.

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It is DEFINED by behavior. A compass has an orientation to the north. We know that because it's behavior is to always turn to the north. The behavior defines and identifies the orientation.

Papa bull said:

It is DEFINED by behavior. A compass has an orientation to the north. We know that because it's behavior is to always turn to the north. The behavior defines and identifies the orientation.

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No it isn't. It's defined by attraction. Here's what you said:

Papa bull said:

However, homosexuality is having sex with someone that is of the same sex. That's what a homosexual is.

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If a homosexual decides to remain celibate and not behave sexually even though they are attracted to members of the same sex, what are they?

Understanding the difference, yet?

CaptainCourtesy said:

If a homosexual decides to remain celibate and not behave sexually even though they are attracted to members of the same sex, what are they?

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They are asexual. You cannot be identified as a homosexual without behavior that identifies you as homosexual. You can say you are, but there is no real difference between you and anyone else until you act on sexual desires for the same sex.

I don't think it is right to say that a youth is a homosexual because he has feelings for someone of the same sex. That may pass. It may not. Only the behavior ultimately determines whether a person is a homosexual.