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Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

What it demonstrates is that the definition of the word marriage did not meet the criteria to be considered a definition. It has now be corrected.
No, not even close.

A 5-4 states' rights decision on DOMA curiously along unexpected ideological lines and a 5-4 states' rights decision on Prop 8 regarding procedure for modifying a state's constitutional provisions is simply not a "marriage definition" matter.

"Marriage" remains what it has always been for over 12,000 years since the agricultural revolution, "between a man and a woman as husband and wife", isolated and pocketed violations never having been "redefintions".

Your ideological spin as to what the SCOTUS decisions mean is simply erroneous, obviously.
 
No, not even close. A 5-4 states' rights decision on DOMA curiously along unexpected ideological lines and a 5-4 states' rights decision on Prop 8 regarding procedure for modifying a state's constitutional provisions is simply not a "marriage definition" matter.

It is bizarre that people are characterizing the DOMA decision as a states' rights decision. Equal Protection played the most prominent role.
 
You should actually go the majority opinion before you pontificate on it.

DOMA was said in that majority opinion to be unconstituti0onal specifically because of a deprivation of equal liberty under the Due Process clause of 5th Amendment.

The only reference to states rights was the right of states to define the law under state sovereignty, which in fact was nowhere denied by DOMA, with the 10th Amendment "states rights" nowhere being cited as the cause for the ruling. The

Quotes from Kennedy's decision:
"Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment."

"DOMA's principal effect is to identify a subset of state-sanctioned marriages and make them unequal. The principal purpose is to impose inequality, not for other reasons like governmental efficiency. Responsibilities, as well as rights, enhance the dignity and integrity of the person. And DOMA contrives to deprive some couples married under the laws of their State, but not other couples, of both rights and responsibilities."​

The references above, and throughout the ruling, presumes same sex couples to be the equivalent of marriage, and ignores that the federal government's recognition of same sex marriage forces other states to recognize that fabricated definition of marriage. That first quote actually shows that presumption of equality in its statement.

In short, the majority opinion does nothing but presume what it wants to conclude, and uses states rights only to justify that redefinition of marriage by the state, which DOMA never denied. But the decision then compels that recognition of the state's definition, not by any states right to compel other states and the federal government to recognize that redefinition, which is your mistaken claim, but by the presumption of that false equivalence made by that state being valid outside the state, and under the Constitution, and then applies the 5th Amendment due process to reach its preordained conclusion, in disregard of the Constitution's intent and the fact of terminology.

The court sidesteps and ignores the entire interest of the Congress in making Doma, inclusive of a majority of Democrats in both houses, to prevent the abuse of the Full Faith and Credit clause, and prohibit any corrupt compulsion put on the other states by the whim of a few. This was nothing but an example of the corruption of the judiciary, and willingness to engage dictation and legislation from the bench, which is what Scalia and others recognized in their scathing dissent.

We are no longer a Republic ruled by law, but an aristocracy ruled by men.

And I'm done responding to you, as your behavior has shown a repeated lack of character, and abuse of your position in order to get an upper hand by inappropriate means. Your repetition of the same arguments and distortions of fact, converting the fact of reproduction originating from heterosexual relationship, into a compulsion to have children, which nowhere is relevant, and reversing cause and effect, have already been dealt with and were gutted elsewhere, hence your need to resort to abuse of position.

1) Justice Kennedy's statement is on target. SSM and OSM are equivalent in regards to how marriage is seen by the government. Since we know that procreation is not a requirement, we know that children of gays do as well as children of straights, and we know that committed relationships (be they gay or straight) are beneficial to society, we know that Kennedy is on target with his equivalency statement. You have completely failed in proving this position wrong. If you believe that they are NOT equivalent, prove it... but remember, procreation is off the table as it is not a requirement for marriage.
2) The state's rights position is that the unconstitutionality of DOMA allows the states to decide on marriage, without the federal government's input in regards to benefits and such. Since it sees SSM as equivalent to straight marriage (which by governmental definition, it is), states are no longer prevented from full recognition if they choose.
3) Consistently, you have contradicted yourself and ignored definitions. You have admitted that procreation is not a requirement for marriage, then denied this when it sinks your argument. Further, your reliance on logical fallacies, even when these were demonstrated to you, seriously hurt your argument This is dishonest debating. Your positions have been completely are totally shredded, not only by me, but by anyone who has responded to you. If you look at the response of others, from either side of the political spectrum, they mirror what I've told you. I understand that you don't like this, as you have invested a lot of time into a failed argument, but that's how it is. Perhaps the next time you debate an issue, you will spend a little more time researching it, so your positions are not so poorly constructed and inaccurate.

You of course have opportunities to redeem yourself. I have asked you to demonstrate how SSM and OSM are different... and remember, since procreation is not a requirement for marriage, you cannot use this point. I would be interested in seeing your answer.
 
No, not even close.

A 5-4 states' rights decision on DOMA curiously along unexpected ideological lines and a 5-4 states' rights decision on Prop 8 regarding procedure for modifying a state's constitutional provisions is simply not a "marriage definition" matter.

"Marriage" remains what it has always been for over 12,000 years since the agricultural revolution, "between a man and a woman as husband and wife", isolated and pocketed violations never having been "redefintions".

Your ideological spin as to what the SCOTUS decisions mean is simply erroneous, obviously.

Your ideological spin does not allow you to understand how definitions are formed and what constitutes a definition. You'd prefer to just hold onto your ideological bias. That's fine, but it doesn't alter that you are wrong. Go look up the definition of the word definition and then get back to us.
 
Uh, that "opposite sex booty call" is still heterosexual reproduction, and the term "relationship" does not necessitate nor imply any sort of ongoing relationship between people, but references the ongoing and immutable relation of the sperm and ovum necessary for reproduction, to those two heterosexual sexes.

Likewise, artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization also rely on that same heterosexual reproduction process, and rape as well.

Again, and quite obviously, the reference to "relationship" does not refer to any ongoing relationship between partners, much less a stable one, but the relationship of the reproduction process to that heterosexuality... and it really is an inane claim that it might be.

Perhaps you might want to define your terms. You are using the word "relationship" NOT in a way that most people use it. With YOUR usage, it does not apply to marriage.
 
It is bizarre that people are characterizing the DOMA decision as a states' rights decision. Equal Protection played the most prominent role.
The due process clause cited applies to the states, not to individuals or couples.

As Kennedy stated, ""DOMA's principal effect is to identify a subset of state-sanctioned marriages and make them unequal. "

This is not an endorsement of SSM with respect to equality, it's a statement about what the state decided relevant to the case brought before the SCOTUS, that the state lumped OS and SS marriages together and that the state had a right to do that and that DOMA was infringing on the state's right to consider OS and SS marriages marriages.

Equal protection is being applied to the state's decision in the matter here, not to the nature of the marriages.

It's important in understanding the matter to grasp this distinction.

Ideologues on the left will likely miss this very important fact, only to then experience shock and dismay when future decisions in the matter don't go their way.

This is all about the states and their rights over the federal government, nothing more.
 
Your ideological spin does not allow you to understand how definitions are formed and what constitutes a definition. You'd prefer to just hold onto your ideological bias. That's fine, but it doesn't alter that you are wrong. Go look up the definition of the word definition and then get back to us.
Actually, it's your very words here that describe your spin on the matter, and have truly nothing to do with me.

Again, this was a states' rights decision, nothing more, obviously.

That you think it implies a "redefinition" of the word "marriage" is so laughably ludicrous that it's truly sad, a typical ideologue's overreaction.
 
Actually, it's your very words here that describe your spin on the matter, and have truly nothing to do with me.

Not at all. Your refusal to educate yourself on this issue and actually UNDERSTAND what a definition is, is the problem.

Again, this was a states' rights decision, nothing more, obviously.

And I've said that from the beginning.

That you think it implies a "redefinition" of the word "marriage" is so laughably ludicrous that it's truly sad, a typical ideologue's overreaction.

Didn't say anything about "redefinition". Your ideological bias is causing you to debate what you WANT me to have said, not what I said. This is called a strawman and it is a very weak debate tactic. You might want to correct that.
 
Not at all. Your refusal to educate yourself on this issue and actually UNDERSTAND what a definition is, is the problem. And I've said that from the beginning. Didn't say anything about "redefinition". Your ideological bias is causing you to debate what you WANT me to have said, not what I said. This is called a strawman and it is a very weak debate tactic. You might want to correct that.
No, once again, you seem to think that the word "marriage" was redefined in the past, which it wasn't, and that now the SCOTUS decisions "validate" that redefinition, which most certainly did not happen.

The word "marriage" has never been "redefined" in recent decades as you erroneously spin, and referencing word usage in on-line dictionaries is not exemplifying redefinition.

The use of the erroneous oxymornic phrases "SSM", "same-sex marriage" "gay marriage", etc. in no way redefined the word "marriage", as erroneous reference does not a "redefinition" make.

Again, the only one of the two of us wearing ideological blinders here is you.

That's quite obvious.
 
No, once again, you seem to think that the word "marriage" was redefined in the past, which it wasn't, and that now the SCOTUS decisions "validate" that redefinition, which most certainly did not happen.

The word "marriage" has never been "redefined" in recent decades as you erroneously spin, and referencing word usage in on-line dictionaries is not exemplifying redefinition.

The use of the erroneous oxymornic phrases "SSM", "same-sex marriage" "gay marriage", etc. in no way redefined the word "marriage", as erroneous reference does not a "redefinition" make.

Again, the only one of the two of us wearing ideological blinders here is you.

That's quite obvious.

What's quite obvious is that your ideology is preventing you from debating what I am saying. I understand that it is far easier to debate what you want me to have said, but that's just a logical fallacy. I have never mentioned the word "redefine", nor is that what I am arguing. Now, I know that it is far easier to run from my actual position, but would you like to give it a try, or would you prefer to allow your bias to cause you to take the safe route, and just straw man?
 
What's quite obvious is that your ideology is preventing you from debating what I am saying. I understand that it is far easier to debate what you want me to have said, but that's just a logical fallacy. I have never mentioned the word "redefine", nor is that what I am arguing. Now, I know that it is far easier to run from my actual position, but would you like to give it a try, or would you prefer to allow your bias to cause you to take the safe route, and just straw man?
Now you try to deny that you previously clearly stated that the word "marriage" was redefined some time ago and that today's SCOTUS rulings substantiated those redefinitions. :roll:

Unless, of course, I missed your other possible cryptic assumption that the word "marriage" has always meant more than "a man and a woman as husband and wife", which is even more errouneous then the former error, if it's possible for one of two errors to be "more erroneous" than the other.

Regardless, your hair-splitting diversion is simply that, an attempt to run from the fact that you are in error either way.

Reality remains that today's SCOTUS rulings were simply nothing but state's rights decisions, each one 5-4, and one along ideological lines.

There is no comment there one way or the other on the definition of "marriage".

"Marriage" remains what it has been for 12,000 years through the present, unchangable by nature: "between a man and a woman as husband and wife".
 
"Marriage" remains what it has been for 12,000 years through the present, unchangable by nature: "between a man and a woman as husband and wife".

Except in Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and most likely California where same sex marriage will now be recognized by the federal government and respective state governments. So...seems pretty "changed" to me. Which I believe is good, because tradition does not equate to inherently superior.
 
Now you try to deny that you previously clearly stated that the word "marriage" was redefined some time ago and that today's SCOTUS rulings substantiated those redefinitions. :roll:

Unless, of course, I missed your other possible cryptic assumption that the word "marriage" has always meant more than "a man and a woman as husband and wife", which is even more errouneous then the former error, if it's possible for one of two errors to be "more erroneous" than the other.

Regardless, your hair-splitting diversion is simply that, an attempt to run from the fact that you are in error either way.

Reality remains that today's SCOTUS rulings were simply nothing but state's rights decisions, each one 5-4, and one along ideological lines.

There is no comment there one way or the other on the definition of "marriage".

"Marriage" remains what it has been for 12,000 years through the present, unchangable by nature: "between a man and a woman as husband and wife".

In other words, you'd rather run away from my actual position then debate it. This is pretty obvious since I have never used the term "redefine" never suggested that there was a redefinition, nor have I said anything other than this being a state's rights decision. If you think I have done any of these things, please quote me. If not you have a choice: either debate what I actually am arguing or continue to take the easy way out and debate what you want me to have said, which will make anything you say irrelevant. Your choice.
 
Except in Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and most likely California where same sex marriage will now be recognized by the federal government and respective state governments. So...seems pretty "changed" to me. Which I believe is good, because tradition does not equate to inherently superior.
No, these are simply isolated pocketed violations of definitive propriety, ideologically compelled, and do not at all reflect any "redefinition", as violations have no power to "redefine", obviously.

When ideological power swings to the opposite side in these states, these laws will get reversed, so there's nothing of earth-shattering occurrence here.
 
Ideologues on the left will likely miss this very important fact, only to then experience shock and dismay when future decisions in the matter don't go their way.

This is all about the states and their rights over the federal government, nothing more.

I don't really see any point in pursuing any future decisions. This was the perfect one. Same sex marriage will not become the next Roe. v Wade. This will be debated on the state level and state by state same sex marriage will be adopted. A few holdout states may face a ruling by SCOTUS but by then it will be a Loving v. Virginia type of ruling where most of the states already recognize it and the few remaining states struggle to justify their position. Many of the current justices will likely be long retired or dead by that point. This was the ruling most gay activists were seeking at this point in time; not a ruling for same sex marriage as a Constitutional right but a ruling that will allow same sex marriage advocates to gradually win the hearts and minds of the country.
 
In other words, you'd rather run away from my actual position then debate it. This is pretty obvious since I have never used the term "redefine" never suggested that there was a redefinition, nor have I said anything other than this being a state's rights decision. If you think I have done any of these things, please quote me. If not you have a choice: either debate what I actually am arguing or continue to take the easy way out and debate what you want me to have said, which will make anything you say irrelevant. Your choice.
Here you employ the debate tactic of obfuscation via subterfuge, in which you purport to have stated something different than you actually did and implore me to debate that different thing .. which you never stated .. and, of course, you don't bother to restate what you never said .. but simply chastise me for not staying on your point .. that was never even made.

:roll:

If such obfuscation via subterfuge is all you have, then there simply is no debating with you, obviously.

If you can do better, if you can actually clearly state a point rather than allude to something you never stated, then there's potential for debate.

Until then, consider your point lost, understandably.

What's important with respect to the much more important topical relevance, today's SCOTUS decisions did not at all speak to either the validity or invalidity of the oxymoronic SSM, but simply reiterated states' rights, nothing more.
 
No, these are simply isolated pocketed violations of definitive propriety, ideologically compelled, and do not at all reflect any "redefinition", as violations have no power to "redefine", obviously.

When ideological power swings to the opposite side in these states, these laws will get reversed, so there's nothing of earth-shattering occurrence here.

If that makes you feel better about it then good for you but the truth remains I can go marry a same sex partner in those states and it will be recognized by the federal government.
 
Here you employ the debate tactic of obfuscation via subterfuge, in which you purport to have stated something different than you actually did and implore me to debate that different thing .. which you never stated .. and, of course, you don't bother to restate what you never said .. but simply chastise me for not staying on your point .. that was never even made.

:roll:

If such obfuscation via subterfuge is all you have, then there simply is no debating with you, obviously.

If you can do better, if you can actually clearly state a point rather than allude to something you never stated, then there's potential for debate.

Until then, consider your point lost, understandably.

What's important with respect to the much more important topical relevance, today's SCOTUS decisions did not at all speak to either the validity or invalidity of the oxymoronic SSM, but simply reiterated states' rights, nothing more.

I gave you a chance to quote where I used the word "redefine" or where I said that the ruling was anything other than a states rights issue. This should be EASY if I actually did this. Why have you chosen to run from this challenge? Perhaps because I've called you on your strawmanning and instead of taking responsibility for it, you have chosen to dodge the fact that that's what you did?

Tell me when you are ready to actually debate what I said.
 
I don't really see any point in pursuing any future decisions. This was the perfect one. Same sex marriage will not become the next Roe. v Wade. This will be debated on the state level and state by state same sex marriage will be adopted. A few holdout states may face a ruling by SCOTUS but by then it will be a Loving v. Virginia type of ruling where most of the states already recognize it and the few remaining states struggle to justify their position. Many of the current justices will likely be long retired or dead by that point. This was the ruling most gay activists were seeking at this point in time; not a ruling for same sex marriage as a Constitutional right but a ruling that will allow same sex marriage advocates to gradually win the hearts and minds of the country.
With respect to "gradually winning the hearts and minds of the country", that's not likely to happen, as all that's been done in effect is to increase animosity of those 92% of the population that are pissed that their 12,000 year-old institution is being brazenly hijacked by 2% of the population. That won't "win" anything .. but adversity.

What is now likely to happen, however, is that states who think there is some nebulous "handwriting on the wall" will rush to create homarriage domestic partner civil unions. :shock:

This will allow SS couples to get homarried, and have equal protection in their committed monogamous romantic relationships regarding their relationship's dealings with government and private enterprise while at the same time respecting definitive propriety and the institution of marriage that belongs to 92% of the population as a class.

Once that begins to happen, once that becomes the norm, then your "Loving v. Virginia" will occur in reverse of what you imagine, likely compelling the comparative handful of states that have ludicrously sanctioned the oxymoronic SSM to invalidate those relationships .. or convert them to homarriages.

:cool:

You would do well to rethink your "likely outcome" scenarios in light of the most probable outcomes.
 
I gave you a chance to quote where I used the word "redefine" or where I said that the ruling was anything other than a states rights issue. This should be EASY if I actually did this. Why have you chosen to run from this challenge? Perhaps because I've called you on your strawmanning and instead of taking responsibility for it, you have chosen to dodge the fact that that's what you did? Tell me when you are ready to actually debate what I said.
:roll:

Continuing your debate tactic of obfuscation via subterfuge is only a signal of capitulation.

I'll take the "hint" that you're done.
 
No, not even close.

A 5-4 states' rights decision on DOMA curiously along unexpected ideological lines

4 liberal justices and Kennedy was exactly what was expected. What cave have you been living in.

and a 5-4 states' rights decision on Prop 8 regarding procedure for modifying a state's constitutional provisions is simply not a "marriage definition" matter.

The gist of the ruling was not states rights. It was mentioned briefly.

"Marriage" remains what it has always been for over 12,000 years since the agricultural revolution, "between a man and a woman as husband and wife", isolated and pocketed violations never having been "redefintions".

Well, except for all the places it has not been like what you think, including previously in this United States. And except for all the places currently where it is not what you think. But I am sure those are just "exceptions". the excuse when something ruins your argument.

Your ideological spin as to what the SCOTUS decisions mean is simply erroneous, obviously.

You should probably read the decisions before commenting on them. You are pretty much entirely wrong in what they ruled.
 
With respect to "gradually winning the hearts and minds of the country", that's not likely to happen, as all that's been done in effect is to increase animosity of those 92% of the population that are pissed that their 12,000 year-old institution is being brazenly hijacked by 2% of the population. That won't "win" anything .. but adversity.

What is now likely to happen, however, is that states who think there is some nebulous "handwriting on the wall" will rush to create homarriage domestic partner civil unions. :shock:

This will allow SS couples to get homarried, and have equal protection in their committed monogamous romantic relationships regarding their relationship's dealings with government and private enterprise while at the same time respecting definitive propriety and the institution of marriage that belongs to 92% of the population as a class.

Once that begins to happen, once that becomes the norm, then your "Loving v. Virginia" will occur in reverse of what you imagine, likely compelling the comparative handful of states that have ludicrously sanctioned the oxymoronic SSM to invalidate those relationships .. or convert them to homarriages.

:cool:

You would do well to rethink your "likely outcome" scenarios in light of the most probable outcomes.

None of this is based in reality since the majority of Americans support SSM, a percentage that has been near continuously rising for over 15 years. And, since we know that younger people tend to support SSM more strongly, this number will only rise. Fact and logic prove you wrong, of course.
 
If that makes you feel better about it then good for you but the truth remains I can go marry a same sex partner in those states and it will be recognized by the federal government.
Yes, you can oxymoronically get a same sex partner "marriage" license in those comparative handful of states .. for now.

But, in reality, you'll simply not be married.

And, of course, all is reversible with a mere predictable ideological swing of the pendulum of power ...
 
:roll:

Continuing your debate tactic of obfuscation via subterfuge is only a signal of capitulation.

I'll take the "hint" that you're done.

I suppose I will take this as your concession that 1) you lied about what I claimed, and 2) you cannot debate what I actually claimed. This is not surprising, but I am glad that you have exhibited your lack of logic and inability to debate my position to everyone.

Like I said... let me know when/if you are ready to debate my actual position. Then we can get started.
 
With respect to "gradually winning the hearts and minds of the country", that's not likely to happen, as all that's been done in effect is to increase animosity of those 92% of the population that are pissed that their 12,000 year-old institution is being brazenly hijacked by 2% of the population. That won't "win" anything .. but adversity.

Your reaction is hardly the norm. Truth is, SSM has gained in support every single year lately. Under 30 it is overwhelmingly supported. The people most opposed to it are the older generation who are dying out. I realize you are alergic to facts and science, but polling might be something to look at before making such nonsensical claims.

What is now likely to happen, however, is that states who think there is some nebulous "handwriting on the wall" will rush to create homarriage domestic partner civil unions. :shock:

This will allow SS couples to get homarried, and have equal protection in their committed monogamous romantic relationships regarding their relationship's dealings with government and private enterprise while at the same time respecting definitive propriety and the institution of marriage that belongs to 92% of the population as a class.

Once that begins to happen, once that becomes the norm, then your "Loving v. Virginia" will occur in reverse of what you imagine, likely compelling the comparative handful of states that have ludicrously sanctioned the oxymoronic SSM to invalidate those relationships .. or convert them to homarriages.

:cool:

You would do well to rethink your "likely outcome" scenarios in light of the most probable outcomes.

What is likely to happen is you will be wrong again. At least you are used to it.
 
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