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Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

The government doesn't discriminate against gays...

Gays just want to be a "protected class" and have MORE rights than anyone else..

I find anyone who believes the government should protect them from scrutiny to be obnoxious..
Gay couples in these two court cases are only asking for the same privileges granted to heterosexual couples. Granting gays the right to marry does not give them more rights than heterosexuals with the right to marry. It grants them the same rights. If you want to talk about hate-crime laws, that is another topic.
 
Other than the sexes of the individuals, please tell us how a homosexual relationship differs from a heterosexual one.

Kinda hard to do that once you've ruled out what makes them different...
 
Kinda hard to do that once you've ruled out what makes them different...

Yes, it is kinda hard to justify gender-based discrimination!

Someone will bring up bearing children, and I'll first point out that "can have children" is not a criteria the government uses for marriage.
 
First off: Civil unions have never actually managed to be treated equally. There are simply so many laws tied into marriage that it's basically impossible to make sure everything is covered. Furthermore, even when one state manages to implement proper civil unions, other states do not and neither does the federal government. Merely driving into a state that doesn't recognize same-sex civil unions could potentially bring about some trouble.

Second, what you have so graciously offered to homosexuals is a "separate but equal" designation. Ponder that and maybe you'll figure out why people don't think it's good enough.

Finally, I'd ask you to try to back up your bull**** conspiracy about the gay agenda by explaining to me that if homosexuals don't want to get married, why are we even having this discussion? Then I'd ask you to explain why it matters how many people choose to exercise a particular right.

You're right. Homosexuals are free to live with someone. Well, except when a freaking judge orders them not to. But tell us more about why you think they should be delegated to this separate-but-equal designation. Maybe I can just shortcut the whole thing for you: Separate but Equal is inherently NOT EQUAL. It would still leave homosexuals with a metaphorical scarlet letter. A stigma that will always be associated with a group that is being kept apart. It's a label, stamped and approved by the United States government, stating that these people aren't good enough to be lumped in with the rest of society. **** that, man. Nobody should have to live like that.
To add, civil unions would not be equal because they would not receive the federal benefits of marriage. So they are inherently unequal at the federal level. At the state level, even if unions provided the exact same benefits, they would be unwarranted. It makes absolutely not sense to have two different licenses that grant the exact same privileges. There is not rational basis for that, and it only complicates the law. The only difference between the two would be one is for gays and one is for heterosexuals. Should we create "interracial unions" instead of allowing interracial marriage? Thus civil unions are inherently unequal applications of the law.
 
I have a solution.

If the right grants liberty to us. We will agree not to take your guns.

If I dint have liberty you wint either.

How about in exchange for two decades of legislated hate, we take away their guns for two decades and call it even?
 
Though you may not like the birth defect reality of homosexuality, it remains the one single solid scientitifc presentation on the etiology of homosexuality.

That some researchers have pointed to epigenetics--how genes are expressed--as a basis for homosexuality does not mean that those scientists are arguing that homosexuality is a "birth defect." Scientific research and theories should not be perverted beyond the scientific basis.

In terms of practicality, normally-functioning people (people who can meet the "reasonable person" test under the law) should be afforded exactly the same protections under the law that are afforded to all other persons. Equal protection does not mean equal for some, but not others. By definition, that is unequal protection.

As the cases that made it to the Supreme Court are legally sound, it is more likely than not that the Court's decision to be released tomorrow morning will take a step toward greater equality under the law with the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) being found to have violated the U.S. Constitution's protections. There is a smaller possibility that a somewhat broader ruling could be offered. Almost certainly, the parsed arguments by DOMA's backers that any person is free to marry--just of the opposite sex--won't be a relevant factor in the decision.

In the wake of the decision, barriers for expanding the legal franchise of marriage will have been reduced. That reduction of barriers will not in any way harm my marriage or that of any other person who already enjoys the legal ability to marry in any way. In short, greater legal inclusiveness will benefit those who have not previously been included, while causing no harm to others' marriages. If some are psychologically unprepared to accept a step toward equality, that's not society's problem and it certainly is not sufficiently compelling to preclude the expansion of the constitutional guarantee of equal protection.

P.S. One of the papers you cite to back your argument (Rice, Friberg, and Gavrilets, "Homosexuality as a Consequence of Epigenetically Canalized Sexual Development," The Quarterly Review of Biology, December 2012, pp.343-368) and cite in another thread, does not use such terms as "abnormal," "defect," or "birth defect" in describing the authors' theory. Transposing such terminology does not reflect the paper nor science contained within it.
 
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The decisions will be read tomorrow. I don't think its just a coincidence that they have been sitting on it until the 10th anniversary of the Lawrence v. Texas decision or two days before the 44th anniversary of the Stonewall Riots. Waiting for confirmation..but I've been hearing that there are only three Justices left to read the decisions; Roberts, Scalia, and Kennedy. Should be an interesting day.
 
That some researchers have pointed to epigenetics--how genes are expressed--as a basis for homosexuality does not mean that those scientists are arguing that homosexuality is a "birth defect."
True.

The valid scientists in the matter employing the scientific method presented the epigenetic etiology of homosexuality, which, so far, after many months, has not met with any rational and scientific conjecture.

Then, when it was crystal clear that what they are describing is the same situation that created other known birth defects only with a different set of epi-markers, the birth defect reality of homosexuality was obvious.

The scientists did not need to speak the obvious, nor was it politically prudent at this time for them to do so.


Scientific research and theories should not be perverted beyond the scientific basis.
But that's just what you are doing here.

You're taking an obvious reality and denying it, perverting the correct conclusion based solely on your ideology.


In terms of practicality, normally-functioning people (people who can meet the "reasonable person" test under the law) should be afforded exactly the same protections under the law that are afforded to all other persons. Equal protection does not mean equal for some, but not others. By definition, that is unequal protection.
Equal protection does not apply here.

Would you give equal protection to a cat owner who insisted on entering his cat in a dog show?

Of course not, as the matter isn't yet one of equality, because before the equality test can be applied, the definitive propriety of the terms must be scrutinized .. and when you do that, you find that the cat owner's request is invalid, as a cat is simply not a dog .. so the issue never rightly moves on to the equality test.

Same is true here with respect to topical relevance. Before the equality test can be applied, the definitive propriety of the terms must be scrutinized .. and when you do that, you find that an SS couple's request for marriage is invalid, as a marriage is "between a man and a woman as husband and wife" .. so the issue never rightly moves on to the equality test.


As the cases that made it to the Supreme Court are legally sound, it is more likely than not that the Court's decision to be released tomorrow morning will take a step toward greater equality under the law with the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) being found to have violated the U.S. Constitution's protections. There is a smaller possibility that a somewhat broader ruling could be offered. Almost certainly, the parsed arguments by DOMA's backers that any person is free to marry--just of the opposite sex--won't be a relevant factor in the decision.
How a case is argued has no bearing on relevant realities.

Homosexuality remains a birth defect no matter what the SCOTUS decides on DOMA .. and "marriage" remains "between a man and a woman as husband and wife", as it has for over 12,000 years since the agricultural revolution, isolated pocketed violations notwithstanding and, obviously, unjustifiable to redefine "marriage", no matter what the SCOTUS decides on DOMA.

As you know, wrong decisions have been made under political and popular pressure.



In the wake of the decision, barriers for expanding the legal franchise of marriage will have been reduced. That reduction of barriers will not in any way harm my marriage or that of any other person who already enjoys the legal ability to marry in any way. In short, greater legal inclusiveness will benefit those who have not previously been included, while causing no harm to others' marriages. If some are psychologically unprepared to accept a step toward equality, that's not society's problem and it certainly is not sufficiently compelling to preclude the expansion of the constitutional guarantee of equal protection.
Your supposition and premises as to why many are adverse to "marriage" of SS couples is somewhat erroneous and completely irrelevant.

What matters is that "marriage" isn't and has never been anything other than "a man and a woman as husband and wife".

Though SS couples are constitutionally entitled to equal protection in their domestic partner civil unions, they simply cannot rightly call those domestic partner civil unions "marriage".

I would recommend the term "homarriage".


P.S. One of the papers you cite to back your argument (Rice, Friberg, and Gavrilets, "Homosexuality as a Consequence of Epigenetically Canalized Sexual Development," The Quarterly Review of Biology, December 2012, pp.343-368) and cite in another thread, does not use such terms as "abnormal," "defect," or "birth defect" in describing the authors' theory. Transposing such terminology does not reflect the paper nor science contained within it.
I, obviously, am doing no "transposing" of terminology.

In the "Homosexuality Is A Birth Defect Thread", my posts near the end of that thread simply illustrated how adding up all the factors involved leads to the unmistakable consclusion that the epigenetically inculcated condition of homosexuality is most certainly a birth defect, about which no debater could rationally refute.
 
In the "Homosexuality Is A Birth Defect Thread", my posts near the end of that thread simply illustrated how adding up all the factors involved leads to the unmistakable consclusion that the epigenetically inculcated condition of homosexuality is most certainly a birth defect, about which no debater could rationally refute.

The scientists in the paper I referenced make no claims whatsoever that homosexuality is a birth defect. Therefore, one can't state that it is an "unmistakable conclusion" that an epigenetic basis (still a theory), is proof that homosexuality is a birth defect. That is not the researchers' claim.
 
cabse5 said:
A SS union can have all the rights and responsibilities of marriage. You see, in Oregon, California, Washington, Nevada, and Colorado, legislation has already been passed in those states to give unions all the rights and responsibilties of marriage. A union can adopt. A union can share each other's assets. Tax advantages would problably be a federal bill. Not at all impossible.

There's nothing to prevent a SS couple from having a union that has all the rights and responsibilites of marriage in those states. And the legislation isn't, IMO, at all controversial. IOW, other states will follow suit.

See the disconnect? See the unfairness? One of the reasons SSM advocates give for church goers to accede SSM is that they can practice their religon anyway. I'm saying SS unions can practice their union with all the rights and responsibilites of marriage anyway.


Blacks could also quench their thirst by drinking out of drinking fountains that were "reserved" for them....they didn't have to drink out of "white only" drinking fountains.

See how ridiculous your argument is?
 
The scientists in the paper I referenced make no claims whatsoever that homosexuality is a birth defect. Therefore, one can't state that it is an "unmistakable conclusion" that an epigenetic basis (still a theory), is proof that homosexuality is a birth defect. That is not the researchers' claim.
That's patently illogical.

That the scientists were silent on the matter of the obvious birth defect nature of homosexuality is not relevant to any "claims" for or against the birth defect nature of homosexuality.

The scientists' silence on the obvious birth defect nature of homosexuality could be for a number of reasons, political, grant-protection, under management gag-order, etc.

You cannot logically view their silence on the matter as meaning "their lack of a claim means homosexuality isn't a birth defect", obviously.

Also, the epigenetic basis of birth defects has been proven, and, the epigenetic presentation of the etiology of homosexuality is not only scientifically solid but matches the same everythings as other epigenetically based birth defects, and, there has been no rational scientific conjecture on the matter, so the presentation is scientifically solid.

And furthermore, it does not require a mathematical scientist to add the numbers 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 to get the obvious answer of 10. The birth defect nature of homosexuality is just as elementary in its realization, as follows: http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/160480-homosexuality-birth-defect-47.html#post1061845049
... I can understand where you all aren't likely to trust me. After all, I'm the one who presented in the OP the current scientific thinking on the etiology of homosexuality, and I know you find the current scientific thinking unsettling.

But, it is the current scientific thinking, based on a very solid epigenetic model about which there is presently no rational scientific conjecture, lacking only further validation by additional scientific teams to be universally embraced and a proposed prevention a la that which, as the OP presented, drastically reduced the incidence of spina bifida, to begin having the same effect on drastically reducing the incidence of homosexuality.

As to the applicability of the term "birth defect" to this epigenetic model's etiology of homosexuality, there are basically some questions that have to be asked and answered, and, if most or all of these questions are answered in the affimative, there's simply no reasonable doubt that this etiology describes a birth defect.

Presented as applicable statements, these questions are as follows:

As the OP's accurate science links presented:

1. Homosexuality is not a conscious choice and not a genetic trait, but is epigentically inculcated.

2. The epigenetic mechanism that causes homosexuality is abnormal.

3. Epigenetic malfunction abnormalities occur during gestation, causing birth defects.

4. The abnormal epigenetic mechanism that causes homosexuality occurs during gestation and is present at birth.

5. The condition of homosexuality is having a physiological sex that is at abnormal and defective cross-purposes with one's neuropsychological attracted-to gender, reflected in physiological brain abnormalities, and creating an intrinsic misery.


Because all five questions are, without any rational conjecture, accurately answered in the affirmative, from the perspective of this current epigenetic scientific thinking on the etiology of homosexuality, homosexuality can clearly, without any rational conjecture whatsoever, be accurately categorized as a birth defect.

It can't possibly be a "variant", as the term "variant" in this situation would be applicable to genetics, and this scientific model reflecting current thinking is epigenetically based, not genetically based.

Really, there's simply no question that, if this epigenetic model continues to lack scientific refutation and continues to receive scientific validation, it will not only be the breakthrough it appears to be in finally pinpointing the etiology of homosexuality, homosexuality will, without question, then be accurately categorized as a birth defect.

Then, when the proposed preventions of this epigenetic malfunction are created, such as giving the pregnant woman specific vitamins/supplements/etc., and implementing these preventions begins to drastically reduce the incidence of homosexuality, that won't rationally be a "eugenics" controversy, and it won't be because simply preventing a birth defect does not a eugenics issue make.
 
There's nothing to prevent a SS couple from having a union that has all the rights and responsibilites of marriage in those states. And the legislation isn't, IMO, at all controversial. IOW, other states will follow suit.

Except in real life, civil unions do not have the same status as married couples. In real life, separate but equal does not work. It never ends up equal. Under the constitution, separate but equal is not grounds to infringe on anyone's rights.

See the disconnect? See the unfairness? One of the reasons SSM advocates give for church goers to accede SSM is that they can practice their religon anyway. I'm saying SS unions can practice their union with all the rights and responsibilites of marriage anyway.

No, there is no unfairness. There is no unfairness in you not being allowed to pass laws to control other people's behavior and rights according to your religion. You can feel however you want about same sex marriages. You can pray however you want about them. You, if you are a religious figure, and refuse to perform any of them. But you don't get to make the laws about them. The constitution does not protect your religion like that. You can practice however you like without curtailing the rights of others.

And the constitution certainly does not protect your religion to the extent that it gives it a superior position over other religions that DON'T have a problem with same sex marriage. Why should your brand of Christianity make the rules and Reform Judaism not make the rules? Why should one religion get special treatment over others? The answer is that no religion gets special treatment. No religion gets to enforce its rules over others. That's how actual freedom works, not just freedom for you.
 
That's patently illogical.

That the scientists were silent on the matter of the obvious birth defect nature of homosexuality is not relevant to any "claims" for or against the birth defect nature of homosexuality.

It's relevant strictly on the point that one cannot use their research to claim that their research demonstrates that homosexuality is a "birth defect." They don't make that claim. Arguments to that end that cite their paper are solely the personal interpretations of those making such arguments, not the scientists who conducted the research.

The scientists' silence on the obvious birth defect nature of homosexuality could be for a number of reasons, political, grant-protection, under management gag-order, etc.

Or it could be that they wish to focus strictly on the science, rather than taint their work with political or ideological arguments that have no scientific basis.

You cannot logically view their silence on the matter as meaning "their lack of a claim means homosexuality isn't a birth defect", obviously.

My point was that one cannot cite their work to claim that the research shows that homosexuality is a birth defect. Their work, if one reads the whole paper, does not make any such judgments.

Also, the epigenetic basis of birth defects has been proven, and, the epigenetic presentation of the etiology of homosexuality is not only scientifically solid but matches the same everythings as other epigenetically based birth defects, and, there has been no rational scientific conjecture on the matter, so the presentation is scientifically solid.

Not exactly. That there can be an epigenetic basis to birth defects does not mean that every outcome with an epigenetic basis is a birth defect. Such logic does not hold up. An analogy: If one takes a certain amount of a given medicine, one dies. If one then uses your logic, one would conclude that the medicine is harmful. In fact, a prescribed dose could be beneficial.

Moreover, the epigenetic explanation is a theory and the authors of the paper make that clear. They have confidence that their theory would stand up to further testing, but they do not suggest that it is an established scientific fact.
 
It's relevant strictly on the point that one cannot use their research to claim that their research demonstrates that homosexuality is a "birth defect." They don't make that claim. Arguments to that end that cite their paper are solely the personal interpretations of those making such arguments, not the scientists who conducted the research. Or it could be that they wish to focus strictly on the science, rather than taint their work with political or ideological arguments that have no scientific basis. My point was that one cannot cite their work to claim that the research shows that homosexuality is a birth defect. Their work, if one reads the whole paper, does not make any such judgments.
Here you're simply repeating yourself in other words, which still means your presentation is illogical.

You simply cannot draw any conclusion about the birth defect nature of homosexuality from the scientists silence on the matter.

You're simply leading on and on until you've convinced yourself that their siilence "means" something.

It doesn't, obviously.

The accurate conclusion that homosexuality is a birth defect comes from reviewing the scientists' paper, reaching the unmistakable conclusion.



Not exactly. That there can be an epigenetic basis to birth defects does not mean that every outcome with an epigenetic basis is a birth defect. Such logic does not hold up. An analogy: If one takes a certain amount of a given medicine, one dies. If one then uses your logic, one would conclude that the medicine is harmful. In fact, a prescribed dose could be beneficial. Moreover, the epigenetic explanation is a theory and the authors of the paper make that clear. They have confidence that their theory would stand up to further testing, but they do not suggest that it is an established scientific fact.
Your "in theory it could be"s here are irrelevant.

You are merely digressing into a divertive lecture, generalizing, somewhat erroneously, rather than face the specifics I presented that unquestionably reveal the birth defect nature of homosexuality.

Thus you did not respond to the specific five points that together conclude the obvious reality that homosexuality is a birth defect.

If you want to present a cogent rational debate against my presentation, then take the five points I presented and try to refute each one and take them all together and try to refute that they mean "birth defect".

That would be to the point in the debate.

Everthing else is merely dodging the "harsh" reality you're having difficulty accepting.
 
Moderator's Warning:
This thread is about the impending decision on SSM, NOT about theories of homosexuality. Please stay on topic or consequences will occur.
 
In terms of practicality, normally-functioning people (people who can meet the "reasonable person" test under the law) should be afforded exactly the same protections under the law that are afforded to all other persons. Equal protection does not mean equal for some, but not others. By definition, that is unequal protection.

Equal protection does not mean, nor involve, a great many things.

Equal protection also does not involve equal outcome, nor equal reward.

Equal protection does not involve equal outcome for groups or pairings, but rather only equal opportunity for individuals.

Equal protection also does not mean equal protection (or outcome) under different TERMS, but rather only equal protection under the SAME TERMS.

Blacks did not petition Woolworth's to eat at the counter at any hour of the day and night, nor to demand whatever they wanted to eat under their own terms, but rather to be able to eat at that counter under the same terms as everyone else.

Women did not petition for suffrage under their own terms, demanding to vote whenever they wanted, for whatever they wanted, but rather only the ability to vote under the same terms as everyone else.

The fact of the matter is that gays already have access to marriage under the same terms as heterosexuals, but choose to not avail themselves of that institution by the terms that have existed long before the foundation of this country, going back to the mankind's first civilizations. Instead gays want to dictate theirr own terms, then claim denial of rights under those terms, and then demand these terms are recognized as the equivalent in benefit to society of heterosexual marriage, to receive the same recognition and reward, which is untrue, a false equivalence, and thorough corruption of the Constitution's terms.

As the cases that made it to the Supreme Court are legally sound, it is more likely than not that the Court's decision to be released tomorrow morning will take a step toward greater equality under the law with the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) being found to have violated the U.S. Constitution's protections. There is a smaller possibility that a somewhat broader ruling could be offered. Almost certainly, the parsed arguments by DOMA's backers that any person is free to marry--just of the opposite sex--won't be a relevant factor in the decision.

As shown above, the cases before the Supreme Court cannot be legally sound by the terms claimed.

Given that DOMA does not prohibit the states from making any laws, nor does DOMA itself create any definition of marriage, but rather only recognizes the definition that long precedes this country, and has long been recognized in this country, ...

..The only thing that DOMA actually does is prohibit the abuse of the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution from compelling one state fabricating a new definition of marriage by legislative or judicial fiat, nowhere in that state's original authority, and wrongly compel that redefinition on each and every state, which is contrary to the intent of the clause, and the Constitution overall.

Imposing gay marriage by abuse of the Full Faith and Credit clause would create a precedent of ever-expanding anarchy in which each and every state would be compelled to recognize the most expansive and irresponsible definition of any one state on any matter. As example, by such precedent, one state might expand Driver's Licenses to include the ability to operate aircraft, thereby compelling every state to recognize anyone with a Driver's License to allow them to fly any plane. Such an expansive definition would very soon take us back to a time prior to the Wright brothers. Now that's "Progress".
 
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This is what I think.

Prop 8 wrongfully reversed legal marriages in California performed prior to it being implemented. Those marriages should not be revoked. However, Prop 8 should stand for all future marriages. It won in a legal election with the majority voting to keep the traditional definition of marriage. Those people have their right to vote and that should not be revoked or ignored in much the same way if another state voted to legalize same sex unions as marriages

DOMA should be repealed, it is a state's right to define marriage and there should be nothing Constitutionally that forces homosexual marriage to be the law of the land under some guise of "equality." For some reason if Prop 8 is reversed it should still hold that other states may uphold their bans or approvals of SSM.
 
This is what I think.

Prop 8 wrongfully reversed legal marriages in California performed prior to it being implemented. Those marriages should not be revoked. However, Prop 8 should stand for all future marriages. It won in a legal election with the majority voting to keep the traditional definition of marriage. Those people have their right to vote and that should not be revoked or ignored in much the same way if another state voted to legalize same sex unions as marriages

DOMA should be repealed, it is a state's right to define marriage and there should be nothing Constitutionally that forces homosexual marriage to be the law of the land under some guise of "equality." For some reason if Prop 8 is reversed it should still hold that other states may uphold their bans or approvals of SSM.


Why do you think that any the Federal government, any state government, or even any populist majority has the authority to dictate something that long precedes this country's existence, and is founded on the biological fact of human reproduction?

Where do the states have the authority to define marriage, when they have no original jurisdiction over marriage, nor to alter the definition of words to alter outcomes?

Neither the states, nor the federal government, have any authority in dictating the terms of society, social engineering, by which false equivalences are created, and made to meet the whims of a populist majority.

The fact of the matter is that marriage is recognized to involve a man and a woman, because this is how human beings are created, and societies promoted and advanced. Societies have a vested interest in recognizing the the public commitment of heterosexual marriages, because these are the means by which offspring are able to mature over the prolonged period to adolescence in a stable environment, to be produced, well-developed citizens.

Marriage is not a compulsion or demand to procreate, but heterosexual reproduction are the only means that offspring are produced. Marriage is not a guarantee that the offspring will be well-developed and positive additions to society, but the biological home is the best guarantee of this.

Society has no vested interest in whatever union, that cannot possibly produce offspring, and thereby does not promote its own offspring to habit society, and does not thereby advance society, and it is a false equivalence to insist that gay unions are the same as heterosexual unions.

If homosexual unions do have children, it is only as a result of broken biological and social ties, thus making recognition of these homosexual unions contrary to the interest of society.
 
Though you may not like the birth defect reality of homosexuality, it remains the one single solid scientitifc presentation on the etiology of homosexuality.

Reality remains that the birth defect etiology of homosexuality simply was not "refuted" .. it was whined against .. a lot .. but not "refuted", obvious from a simple reading of the thread.

Granted, the birth defect reality of homosexuality will be a harsh reality for ideologues to accept, and for reasons presented in the OP of that thread.

But the birth defect reality of homosexuality is reality.

And, acceptance is always for the best.

Lets assume for a split second that you are right, that it is a birth defect even though there is no evidence that it actually is. Mentally handicapped people, which is considered a birth defect, are allowed to marry so obviously birth defects are not a pre-requisite for not allowing someone to marry. The same goes for any other birth defect out there. So your point fails as a reason to not allow them to marry.
 
Two things. 1. The gun-grabbing agenda is too important to the pinkos and pinkos will vote for it no matter what they say. 2. Homosexuals are already free to live with and love whoever they please. I'd have been a lot more sympathetic about "rights" and "freedoms" if the homosexual community hadn't rejected "civil unions" offering ALL the same rights as marriage. It was then that I realized that it wasn't about homosexuals actually wanting to get married; very few would actually benefit from that. It was about something else and something a lot less honest and a lot less heart wrenching than bleeding heart stories about being deprived of rights.

Actually in California a Mayor once tried to offer and perform civil unions for many gays and they fully accepted. But then the religious folks had a tizzy and convinced the courts to nullify all the civil unions that the Mayor had performed. So it was obvious to everyone that the religious had no intention of allowing gays to have any form of marriage. It was that slap in the face that solidified the push for actual marriage.
 
This is what I think.

Prop 8 wrongfully reversed legal marriages in California performed prior to it being implemented. Those marriages should not be revoked. However, Prop 8 should stand for all future marriages. It won in a legal election with the majority voting to keep the traditional definition of marriage. Those people have their right to vote and that should not be revoked or ignored in much the same way if another state voted to legalize same sex unions as marriages

So if the people in a state voted to remove your freedom of speech for all people born after 6/26/2013 then its perfectly acceptable? No vote cast should ever take away a persons right.
 
Equal protection does not mean, nor involve, a great many things.

Equal protection also does not involve equal outcome, nor equal reward.

Equal protection does not involve equal outcome for groups or pairings, but rather only equal opportunity for individuals.

Equal protection also does not mean equal protection (or outcome) under different TERMS, but rather only equal protection under the SAME TERMS.

Blacks did not petition Woolworth's to eat at the counter at any hour of the day and night, nor to demand whatever they wanted to eat under their own terms, but rather to be able to eat at that counter under the same terms as everyone else.

Women did not petition for suffrage under their own terms, demanding to vote whenever they wanted, for whatever they wanted, but rather only the ability to vote under the same terms as everyone else.

The fact of the matter is that gays already have access to marriage under the same terms as heterosexuals, but choose to not avail themselves of that institution by the terms that have existed long before the foundation of this country, going back to the mankind's first civilizations. Instead gays want to dictate theirr own terms, then claim denial of rights under those terms, and then demand these terms are recognized as the equivalent in benefit to society of heterosexual marriage, to receive the same recognition and reward, which is untrue, a false equivalence, and thorough corruption of the Constitution's terms.

I am not sure how you wrote all of that and did not realize that gay marriage is just like the examples you are talking about. Gays do not want gay marriage. if they did they would want civil unions which would be an entirely new thing. Gays want to be married. They do not want a new marriage law. They simply wish to be allowed to partner up with the people they want to partner up with and get the same legal benefits and responsibilities as anyone else. They do not actually want a news law. they do not want any new things at all. they just want to be a part of the old law. They just want to be married like black wanted to vote and sit at the counter, and women wanted to vote.


As shown above, the cases before the Supreme Court cannot be legally sound by the terms claimed.

Given that DOMA does not prohibit the states from making any laws, nor does DOMA itself create any definition of marriage, but rather only recognizes the definition that long precedes this country, and has long been recognized in this country, ...

..The only thing that DOMA actually does is prohibit the abuse of the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution from compelling one state fabricating a new definition of marriage by legislative or judicial fiat, nowhere in that state's original authority, and wrongly compel that redefinition on each and every state, which is contrary to the intent of the clause, and the Constitution overall.

Imposing gay marriage by abuse of the Full Faith and Credit clause would create a precedent of ever-expanding anarchy in which each and every state would be compelled to recognize the most expansive and irresponsible definition of any one state on any matter. As example, by such precedent, one state might expand Driver's Licenses to include the ability to operate aircraft, thereby compelling every state to recognize anyone with a Driver's License to allow them to fly any plane. Such an expansive definition would very soon take us back to a time prior to the Wright brothers. Now that's "Progress".

Actually, it has been set by precedent that states need to respect marriages in other states. There has been precedent set that forces other states to recognize marriages that would not be legal within their own state to protect the rights of married couples. For instance if state A said you could not be married until you were 18, and state B made it 16, a couple from state B who were legally married would stay married when crossing the border. In that aspect DOMA has run up against a long history of court precedent and federally mandated recognition of marriage contracts across the entire US. DOMA was passed in hopes that it would allow states to not recognize other states marriages, and that actually weakens all marriage contracts if the court upholds that part of it. Imagine if because you moved to a new state you had to get married again because that states laws might be different. You would have to be married in all 50 states to make sure you would not run into legal problems if you traveled.

Let me put what you are talking about into context for you. Let us say you have a wife. You and her go on a little trip. You go to a neighboring state which doesn't recognize your marriage because you were not married there. You get into a car accident and she is injured and in a coma. You are not allowed to visit her or make medical decisions to help her because they do not recognize you are married. That is what you are talking about putting gays through. You are not stopping them from being married in the eyes of god because they can do that in all 50 states any day of the week as long as they find a willing church. None of this is about god, all of it is about the legal benefits and responsibilities of marriage by contracted law here on earth.
 
I am not sure how you wrote all of that and did not realize that gay marriage is just like the examples you are talking about. Gays do not want gay marriage. if they did they would want civil unions which would be an entirely new thing. Gays want to be married. They do not want a new marriage law. They simply wish to be allowed to partner up with the people they want to partner up with and get the same legal benefits and responsibilities as anyone else. They do not actually want a news law. they do not want any new things at all. they just want to be a part of the old law. They just want to be married like black wanted to vote and sit at the counter, and women wanted to vote.

I'm not sure how you read all that, and can still claim that gay marriage is just like heterosexual marriage.

I wasn't referring to gays wanting "gay marriage" but was distinguishing it from heterosexual marriage, just as you do in your first sentence. If gays want to be married, they are quite able to do so now in any one of the States.

Gays may not want a new marriage law, but they want a new marriage definition, one not recognized over the history of mankind, and then they want to abuse whole sections of the Constitution from full faith and Credit, to Equal Protection so as to force that corrupted definition on every individual in every state.

What they want is an entirely new and corrupt meaning to 'equal protection' so it now involves equal results, but under different terms. Gays have nothing in common with blacks wanting to sit at the counter, nor women, because gays want the same results, but under their own terms.

Actually, it has been set by precedent that states need to respect marriages in other states. There has been precedent set that forces other states to recognize marriages that would not be legal within their own state to protect the rights of married couples. For instance if state A said you could not be married until you were 18, and state B made it 16, a couple from state B who were legally married would stay married when crossing the border. In that aspect DOMA has run up against a long history of court precedent and federally mandated recognition of marriage contracts across the entire US. DOMA was passed in hopes that it would allow states to not recognize other states marriages, and that actually weakens all marriage contracts if the court upholds that part of it. Imagine if because you moved to a new state you had to get married again because that states laws might be different. You would have to be married in all 50 states to make sure you would not run into legal problems if you traveled.

Actually under the Full Faith and Credit clause, states recognize the documentation of other states, for the same application. But it is a corruption of FF&C clause, and abuse of the Constitution, to compel other states to accept an entirely new definition as the equivalent of what they have recognized, and then by the FF&C force the same recognition in each and every state. That's commonly called tyranny, and is no more legitimate by abuse of the terms of the Constitution, than it would be if the State offering Gay Marriage came and dictated those terms to other states directly.

No, DOMA was NOT passed hoping that it would allow states to not recognize other state's marriages. DOMA fully allows states to recognize other states altnerative marriage definitions, or not, as the states themselves choose.

All DOMA does is not compel states to recognize gay marriage under the full faith and credit clause, and indicates that the federal government will recognize the standard definition of Marriage that has always been recognized by this country and is instituted into federal laws.

Let me put what you are talking about into context for you. Let us say you have a wife. You and her go on a little trip. You go to a neighboring state which doesn't recognize your marriage because you were not married there. You get into a car accident and she is injured and in a coma. You are not allowed to visit her or make medical decisions to help her because they do not recognize you are married. That is what you are talking about putting gays through. You are not stopping them from being married in the eyes of god because they can do that in all 50 states any day of the week as long as they find a willing church. None of this is about god, all of it is about the legal benefits and responsibilities of marriage by contracted law here on earth.

But your hypothetical about a wife and marriage is entirely inaccurate as to what is going on.

What is going on is one or two states have fabricated a new definition of marriage, that is not based on the fact of human biological reproduction, cannot possibly produce offspring, and is incapable of populating society with offspring it cannot produce, and thereby society has no compelling interest in recognizing gay marriage.

Yet some states want to comel this irrelevant fabrication of marriage on other states, forcing them to accept it as equivalent to marriage, by abuse of the FF&C clause, Equal Protection clause, and even the meaning of "rights", when gay marriage is factually not the equivalent of marriage.

The relevant example here is one I've previously given. If one state were to redefine Driver's Licenses as also applying to airplanes, and then tried to abuse the Full Faith and Credit clause to force every state to recognize those licenses for flying any plane in those states. This would obviously create a problem because those licensee's are really not qualified to fly planes, and are not the equivalent to pilots. If this License recognition were forced on every state, then every state and its citizenry would lose faith in plane pilots, and not want to get aboard planes. The result would be the destruction of the Airline Industry <marriage>, and the undermining of society.
 
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What they want is an entirely new and corrupt meaning to 'equal protection' so it now involves equal results, but under different terms. Gays have nothing in common with blacks wanting to sit at the counter, nor women, because gays want the same results, but under their own terms.
Firstly (and I haven't the time yet to read the thread entire, so my apologies if this has already been dealt with - point me to the relevant posts and I can deal with them in turn), this presupposes that marriage already has a valid definition specific to heterosexuals (or, specifically exclusive of homosexuals). Given that you are pleading a biological basis for marriage, as below, that implies that no such definition already exists. Instead, it seems you are trying frantically to retcon in a definition of your liking so that you can protest that marriage is being 'redefined', rather than - as many would no doubt have - accept that the wide scope of marriage is merely being formally recognised. I'll deal with the validity of your argument from biology later on.

Secondly - under the racist/sexist views of previous times, the same arguments you are making do indeed apply to blacks or women. Just one example:

[original]"Gays already have the right to get married, just like straight people do. What gays want is to have the same results (gays and straights can marry any consenting adult), but under their own terms ("redefining" 'marriage between man and woman' to 'marriage between two people')"[/original]

[parody]"Blacks already have the right to drink from public fountains - just like whites do. What blacks want is to have the same results (whites and blacks can drink from any fountain), but under their own terms ("redefining" 'whites-only' and 'blacks-only' fountains to 'people-only' fountains)"[/parody]

("Redefined" in quotes due to my earlier arguments)

What is going on is one or two states have fabricated a new definition of marriage, that is not based on the fact of human biological reproduction, cannot possibly produce offspring, and is incapable of populating society with offspring it cannot produce, and thereby society has no compelling interest in recognizing gay marriage.
Marriage is not based on 'the fact of human biological reproduction'. Otherwise those who were infertile would not be allowed to marry - after all, they "cannot possibly produce offspring, and [are] incapable of populating society with offspring [they] cannot produce".

Marriage is not dependent on biology. It is a social arrangement, not a biological one. If you want to come up with a reason why marriage should be seen as 'straights-only', you're going to need a better one than that.

As a sideline, given that many anti-SSM are also pro-life, and a common pro-life argument favours adoption, you would think that increasing the number of couples who are willing to adopt and whom the evidence suggests will not be hindered as parents by their sexuality whould be a good thing for society...

The relevant example here is one I've previously given. If one state were to redefine Driver's Licenses as also applying to airplanes, and then tried to abuse the Full Faith and Credit clause to force every state to recognize those licenses for flying any plane in those states. This would obviously create a problem because those licensee's are really not qualified to fly planes, and are not the equivalent to pilots. If this License recognition were forced on every state, then every state and its citizenry would lose faith in plane pilots, and not want to get aboard planes. The result would be the destruction of the Airline Industry <marriage>, and the undermining of society.
That would only be a relevant example if:

a) Such a drastic redefinition had taken place in the first instance, which isn't the case - a more relevant example would be that when a new car comes out, the driving licence automatically accomodates it, even though the driving license was not granted with that specific car in mind.
b) Allowing gays to marry would somehow affect the marriage of straight people, which also isn't true. If you feel that allowing Jane and Wendy to marry each other poses a threat to your own marriage, then prehaps we shouldn't be taking lessons from you in what constitutes a 'stable marriage' in the first place.
 
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