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Thread: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

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    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Trip View Post
    You don't recognize children being born out of a committed parental union, as being a harm to society, and that broken social and biological commitments are both a harm to the offspring and society itself? That's curious. Ever read any sociology studies?
    Possibly, but I know for a fact that there are huge numbers of "harmed" children that are the product of horrible "committed marriages". Nothing is perfect, and those situations exist OUTSIDE of gay marriage.

    I did not mention the adoption of children,
    Yes, you did when you said:

    "They also do not form family units with their own children born of that relationship, but rather the children are only the result of severed social and biological ties, hence a harm to society."



    but yes, it is a harm to society for adoption agencies which are sworn to be operating solely for the best interests of the adoptive children, to engage in social engineering designs by awarding those children to unions from which those children could not have possibly originated.
    So let me understand this, if a gay couple relieve the state from having to support ward children, this is a harm?
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    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by afr0byte View Post
    Nope, not true. The people that are married/to be married in California will be married according to the state, which is the only thing that matters.
    That may matter to you utilitarianly.

    But, it doesn't at all matter with respect to higher inteligence definitive propriety.

    Thus the issue can still be revisted in the future .. and, hopefully, with a different more intelligent result, where SS couples have the civil union domestic partnership of equal treatment they deserve, just with a rightly different name, like "homarriage".
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

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    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Interesting that in the DOMA 5-4 decision, Kennedy (who knows what his ideology is) sided with the four liberals on the court against the four conservatives.

    Thus, in effect, now it's the liberals who are advocating states rights when usually it's the conservatives!

    Clearly, the SCOTUS is merely an ideological extension of the other branches and the people.

    And nothing dumbs down more completely than pre-conceived ideology.
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    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    That may matter to you utilitarianly.

    But, it doesn't at all matter with respect to higher inteligence definitive propriety.

    Thus the issue can still be revisted in the future .. and, hopefully, with a different more intelligent result, where SS couples have the civil union domestic partnership of equal treatment they deserve, just with a rightly different name, like "homarriage".
    Nah. Definitions of words can change. After all, we just made up the definition originally. It's not as if you're some objective arbiter of proper definitions, either. For example, marriage used to exclude interracial marriages. Would you not think it silly for us to suggest calling them intermarriages, instead of just marriages? Of course you might say something like "but it was still between a man and a woman." That'd be irrelevant, though. The definition still changed.

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    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    Though I agree that your perspective has merit, there is too much here that is subject to interpretation and perhaps unvalidated-by-study conjecture.[]

    Thus, philosophically, there could be doubt, which is why I disagreed with that tack being taken in the argument for Prop 8.

    The SCOTUS found the same thing to be true, 5-4, though 5-4 is hardly an across the board mandate.

    Better would have been to appeal to the reality of the definitive propriety of marriage always having been "between a man and a woman as husband and wife", with isolated pocketed violations being simply that, powerless to redefine the word "marriage" any more than unjustified homicides by the mafia and totalitarian governments have the power to narrow and redefine "murder".

    I thought the Prop 8 argument defense would fail the moment I read about it.

    That the decision was so close and not along ideological lines is what surprised me.

    Subject to interpretation and conjecture? That children being born outside of a committed union is a bad detrimental to the children, and as a result, society overall? Curiously you don't state where this 'interpretation" comes into play.

    We have entire cultures that can be compared in the same societies where the outcome of the offspring and the culture, is consistently recognized to be problematic when marriage is not held in esteem, but prositive for those cultures overall and in their advancement in society.

    One cannot look at the 5-4 decision and fail to recognize it is along ideological lines. To eviscerate Kennedy's majority opinion indicated as, " the right to liberty and to equal protection for gay couples", the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment only deals with opportunity, not outcome, and certainly not any guarantee of recognition and reward by society, and not under different terms, which is the social engineering being promoted by the court's majority.

    As far as Prop 8, it is hard to fathom that this country, and Court. might believe that a people do not have the authority to affirm their terms of society, and instead the government can dictate those terms to the people, which is precisely what is expressed by Kennedy:

    The essence of democracy is that the right to make law rests in the people and flows to the government, not the other way around. Freedom resides first in the people without need of a grant from government. The California initiative process embodies these principles and has done so for over a century.

    The actions of the court, and the government, have grossly undermined that freedom.

    "If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary."

    ~ James Madison

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    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by afr0byte View Post
    Nah. Definitions of words can change. After all, we just made up the definition originally. It's not as if you're some objective arbiter of proper definitions, either. For example, marriage used to exclude interracial marriages. Would you not think it silly for us to suggest calling them intermarriages, instead of just marriages? Of course you might say something like "but it was still between a man and a woman." That'd be irrelevant, though. The definition still changed.
    Your contention that a 5-4 SCOTUS decision "changed" the definition of marriage is just as ludicrous as saying if the decision had been 5-4 the other way that it would have upheld the definition of marriage.

    Neither had the power to do either.

    The SCOTUS action, activist ideologues, etc., none of these have the power to redefine a word that has meant "between a man and a woman as husband and wife" for over 12,000 years, as violations of the definition of "marriage" in no way redefine it.

    What will happen as a result will be to increase hostility between homosexuals (2% of the population) and heterosexuals (92% of the population) (6% of the population are bisexuals, vastly not interested in domestic partnership civil unions).

    The result will not be good for the 2%.

    Better was to create civil union domestic partnerships for SS couples called "homarriage" or the like.

    Then everyone gets what they truly deserve: SS copules get equal protection for their relationships, rightly named, and OS couples retain their rightly named civil union domestic partnership, marriage.

    But these close ideological decisions, they in no way resolve anything, but simply increase understandable animosity in the 92% majority against those who would steal from them.

    Eventually, this kind of injustice will politically waken the sleeping giant .. and then woe to those who disrespected this giant force.

    A word to the wise.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

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    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Trip View Post
    Subject to interpretation and conjecture? That children being born outside of a committed union is a bad detrimental to the children, and as a result, society overall? Curiously you don't state where this 'interpretation" comes into play.

    We have entire cultures that can be compared in the same societies where the outcome of the offspring and the culture, is consistently recognized to be problematic when marriage is not held in esteem, but prositive for those cultures overall and in their advancement in society.

    One cannot look at the 5-4 decision and fail to recognize it is along ideological lines. To eviscerate Kennedy's majority opinion indicated as, " the right to liberty and to equal protection for gay couples", the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment only deals with opportunity, not outcome, and certainly not any guarantee of recognition and reward by society, and not under different terms, which is the social engineering being promoted by the court's majority.

    As far as Prop 8, it is hard to fathom that this country, and Court. might believe that a people do not have the authority to affirm their terms of society, and instead the government can dictate those terms to the people, which is precisely what is expressed by Kennedy:

    The essence of democracy is that the right to make law rests in the people and flows to the government, not the other way around. Freedom resides first in the people without need of a grant from government. The California initiative process embodies these principles and has done so for over a century.

    The actions of the court, and the government, have grossly undermined that freedom.
    Has it been shown that homosexual romantic commitments have been less committed than heterosexual ones? I wasn't aware that it had.

    I agree with you with respect to social issues and the people voicing their suffrage authority, as in California, to determine state policy in the matter. The problem is that the California constitution's relevant clause itself was not specifically challenged in the Prop 8 Califonia inititiative, and thus the SCOTUS couldn't grant the truly conjecturable pro-argument anything more than "go back to the drawing board" .. though I do find the mere 5-4 decision that way to mean that ruling was not all that cut and dried, especially considering it didn't fall along ideological lines.

    The decision was more along the lines of legal protocol, not really anything more.

    Those who write state initiatives simply need to do a better job of research and writing.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

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    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    Your contention that a 5-4 SCOTUS decision "changed" the definition of marriage is just as ludicrous as saying if the decision had been 5-4 the other way that it would have upheld the definition of marriage.
    Legally, this means people in California can marry people of the same sex. So clearly a definition of marriage has changed. You're free to have your own definition.

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    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    ill say the same thing i said in the other thread

    WOOOOOWHOOOOOO!!!!!!


    not the end, not a HUGE/FINAL step but a very important and great one!

    Im very happy that freedom had a small victory today and this is just one stepping stone on the path to equality!

    Would have been nice for a larger ruling but i figured SCOTUS would take the turtle approach on this but the sails are up and the wind is going in the right direction. This definitely sets up for future challenges that "seem" to be setting the way for equal rights and less discrimination in America.

    A very good day! Americans that care about equality and freedom should be proud!
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    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    That may matter to you utilitarianly.

    But, it doesn't at all matter with respect to higher inteligence definitive propriety.

    Thus the issue can still be revisted in the future .. and, hopefully, with a different more intelligent result, where SS couples have the civil union domestic partnership of equal treatment they deserve, just with a rightly different name, like "homarriage".
    LOL...you are not against homosexuals having the same union rights of traditional marriage, you just want copywrite on the word.

    What a sad, pedantic argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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