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Thread: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

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    re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by wbcoleman View Post
    Varying ages of consent hardly represent differing definitions of marriage!
    Says you, but I've got some other definitions anyway:

    One man and any number of women/"concubines" (aka sex slave)
    One man and his property (the wife)
    One man and one woman of the same race

    You say is always been male/female, I say so what? The first government sanctioned marriages were a situation in which one woman was literally sold to another family, why the **** should "it's tradition" be something I accept as a legal argument?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The quote you cited makes the same point I just made:

    "Because we reject the notion that the mere "equal application" of a statute containing racial classifications is enough to remove the classifications from the Fourteenth Amendment's proscription of all invidious racial discriminations, we do not accept the State's contention that these statutes should be upheld if there is any possible basis for concluding that they serve a rational purpose."

    Equal application, by itself, doesn't work. SCOTUS agreed that equal application was occurring, which was my only point to you, but that equal application alone isn't enough. The state has to also have compelling reasons, which Virginia did not have, nor do any such reasons exist against SSM. Equal application exists today that allone it's not enough to prevent SSM.

    Rather you're supporting or opposing SSM, you have to have a lot more than "equality" if you want to win. You need a buffet of very good reasons why your way should be law. Equality is not not enough. Equality will not win SSM. You have to show how SSM is good for children, for stable relationships, and for society in general. This is easy to do.
    with reference to this particular point Jerry, "Equality will not win SSM. You have to show how SSM is good for children, for stable relationships, and for society in general. This is easy to do." It should be easy to do, after all, Straights have pulled it off despite half of marriages ending in divorce, many of those intact loveless (fighting all the time), despite high levels of adultery, etc. ... yet, gays are having a hard time. I wonder why.

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    re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I don't need a "winning argument," though. The government is making a gender-based classification regarding a contract between private inviduals. They must demonstrate an important state interest in doing so, and that would be.......
    It's not a private contract, its a state license.

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    re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    From SCOTUSblog: SCOTUS will not be releasing decisions on DOMA or Prop 8 today. Next chance is Thursday.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Yeah he is and yeah there are and I'm talking about both.
    Legally speaking no, he's really not. The assertion he made about Loving is entirely false. I've already pointed out the relevant quote. Take a look.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm not saying that the EPC is not important to the case. It is. But by itself I doubt it would win.
    If you look at some of the state cases (most especially Iowa) it already has won.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    There are too many unequal comparisons when using Loving
    Not from an equal protection standpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    and though it's applicable, one must prove "equality" in ways other than just legal/rights based ways.
    Not in a court of law you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    That's why child rearing, health, and societal benefits are necessary in order to win on this issue.
    All of which is relevant to equal protection analysis, but only if you're already applying heightened scrutiny. Put another way, if SCOTUS hasn't already determined that gay marriage deserves strict scrutiny (or possibly intermediate scrutiny) - that is to say if it hasn't already reached the same conclusion as the Loving court - none of those factors will figure into their 14th amendment analysis.

    It strikes me that you're mentally conflating the policy argument with the legal argument. Those are two very different things.

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    re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's not a private contract, its a state license.
    The license is to enter into the legally recognized contract of marriage. It is a license that becomes a contract as soon as the parties file the license with the state.

    Either way though, it is granted equal protection of our laws.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The license is to enter into the legally recognized contract of marriage. It is a license that becomes a contract as soon as the parties file the license with the state.
    A license is a sub-type of contract, like a permit. A license never "becomes" a contract, a license is always a contract.

    My point being that its a contract the couple enters into with the state, not merly eachother. The state is agreeing to provide certin legal priviliges which the couple cannot provide themselves, such as refusing to testify in court against eachother, and certin tax incentives. In return the couple is agreeing to provide the state with a productive home and more little taxpayers.
    Last edited by Jerry; 06-17-13 at 12:35 PM.

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    re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    A license is a sub-type of contract, like a permit. A license never "becomes" a contract, a license is always a contract.

    My point being that its a contract the couple enters into with the state, not merly eachother. The state is agreeing to provide certin legal priviliges which the couple cannot provide themselves, such as refusing to testify in court against eachother, and certin tax incentives. In return the couple is agreeing to provide the state with a productive home and more little taxpayers.
    Unless it is written into the contract or the laws governing the contract, it is not a legal requirement of the contract. So your assertion that one of the agreements the couple makes with the state in getting married is "a productive home and more little taxpayers" is legally not supported. In fact, given laws that say that certain couples can only marry if they cannot make "more little taxpayers", it goes to prove that you are trying to insert only your opinion into the marriage laws instead of what marriage laws are really about. The laws are about mainly protecting each spouse from each other and from others outside the relation that have some legal claim to kinship to either spouse, in exchange the couple agrees to take on certain legal/financial responsibility for the other as long as they are in the relationship.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Why the Supreme Court may not say ‘I do’ to gay marriage



    Looks like from this article the Supremes may hand the decision down to the individual states.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Why the Supreme Court may not say ‘I do’ to gay marriage



    Looks like from this article the Supremes may hand the decision down to the individual states.
    Yes, I've always thought a nationwide decision was very unlikely in this case. The judges seem skittish to get too far out in front of this issue. I suspect their decision will be limited to California.

    On the other hand, we've seen a cascade of states and even other nations making decisions on this very recently. SCOTUS might see the and just go "well, public support is rapidly changing so lets not worry about going too fast."
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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