Page 149 of 159 FirstFirst ... 4999139147148149150151 ... LastLast
Results 1,481 to 1,490 of 1585

Thread: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

  1. #1481
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,711

    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And I don't need one. The onus to produce a compelling argument is on those advocating homosexual marriage. If they can successfully produce an argument that there is a significant state benefit by expanding their marriage criteria to include same-sex couples, they'll win. Arguing that if the state can't explain why it doesn't want to, that it must make those changes isn't going to win. And there are... what.... 38 states that don't feel homosexuals have made a compelling argument.
    You are correct. A no-harm argument is a failing argument in this debate. The argument IS about how it benefits the state. There are many, including the successful rearing of children, the health and stability (both financial and social) of individuals in licensed monogamous relationships, and financial benefits for both the private industry and government. These are the benefits to the state and why the sanctioning of SSM is compelling.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #1482
    Sage
    Gimmesometruth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    US Southwest
    Last Seen
    09-13-17 @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,405

    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Claiming your arguments win based on your own say so doesn't constitute debate, either. The debate part is over at that point and we're left with empty posturing. See ya around.
    LOL...now you can't even quote me....sigh.

    I am not sure where you found me saying my arguments win because I say so, I think I said your arguments lose because you cannot support them...or they diminish into contrarianism.

    Better luck next time....buhbye.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  3. #1483
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,711

    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I don't think any of those arguments would hold up if the concept of marriage becomes "consenting adults who wish to enter into a domestic partnership". Any legal argument that homosexuals put forward, if compelling, paves the way to virtually any arrangement being endorsed and maybe some people think that's swell, too. I don't.
    That is untrue. There is research that supports the arguments that support SSM. There is not for other arrangements.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #1484
    Sage
    Papa bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Midwest
    Last Seen
    06-25-15 @ 01:35 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,927

    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    That is untrue. There is research that supports the arguments that support SSM. There is not for other arrangements.
    Any argument that traditional marriage of man and woman be changed to open it to other combinations opens up arguments for ANY combination. After all, it's not just a man and a woman, so why not ___xyz__ ... then all the same arguments ensue about bigotry, discrimination, victims, blah blah blah blah blah.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  5. #1485
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,711

    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Any argument that traditional marriage of man and woman be changed to open it to other combinations opens up arguments for ANY combination. After all, it's not just a man and a woman, so why not ___xyz__ ... then all the same arguments ensue about bigotry, discrimination, victims, blah blah blah blah blah.
    This is just a slippery slope logical fallacy. SSM and the other combinations are not equivalent.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #1486
    Sage
    Papa bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Midwest
    Last Seen
    06-25-15 @ 01:35 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,927

    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is just a slippery slope logical fallacy. SSM and the other combinations are not equivalent.
    It's known as precedent and the slippery slope in this case is not a fallacy. While it is possible it may never be borne out, I can't think of any legal arguments to expand marriage beyond a man and a woman that can't be leveraged to try to expand it to other permutations, as well. You may argue that polygamy and incestuous relationships are different, but we're setting a precedent that different isn't inherently wrong, so now the argument that the state must prove some sort of harm from allowing polygamy or incestuous marriage just like you demanded the state show for homosexual marriage. You may claim there is some harm, roguenuke did, but the arguments will likely not stand before critical scrutiny. Why can't a brother marry his sister? What harm to you? What harm to the state? Children? Marriage isn't about procreation per YOUR argument (which I think is wrong)... but you want that argument to stand so you can't rely on that to stop incest.

    This really is a slippery slope. Of all the slippery slope arguments I've heard from gun control to abortion, this is the only one that is unquestionably a steep slope and unquestionably covered with oil.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  7. #1487
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,711

    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    It's known as precedent and the slippery slope in this case is not a fallacy. While it is possible it may never be borne out, I can't think of any legal arguments to expand marriage beyond a man and a woman that can't be leveraged to try to expand it to other permutations, as well. You may argue that polygamy and incestuous relationships are different, but we're setting a precedent that different isn't inherently wrong, so now the argument that the state must prove some sort of harm from allowing polygamy or incestuous marriage just like you demanded the state show for homosexual marriage. You may claim there is some harm, roguenuke did, but the arguments will likely not stand before critical scrutiny. Why can't a brother marry his sister? What harm to you? What harm to the state? Children? Marriage isn't about procreation per YOUR argument (which I think is wrong)... but you want that argument to stand so you can't rely on that to stop incest.
    I have never argued the "harm" position... in fact, I AGREED with you that it was a weak position to argue in post #1481. Therefore, everything you just said does not apply to my position and is not relevant. Please do not ascribe positions to me that I do not hold.

    This really is a slippery slope. Of all the slippery slope arguments I've heard from gun control to abortion, this is the only one that is unquestionably a steep slope and unquestionably covered with oil.
    No, it's a fallacy because of the lack of equivalency. Equivalency is not based on harm, but benefit. I have been VERY clear throughout this entire debate that benefit is what I argue.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #1488
    Sage
    Papa bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Midwest
    Last Seen
    06-25-15 @ 01:35 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,927

    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I have never argued the "harm" position... in fact, I AGREED with you that it was a weak position to argue in post #1481. Therefore, everything you just said does not apply to my position and is not relevant. Please do not ascribe positions to me that I do not hold.



    No, it's a fallacy because of the lack of equivalency. Equivalency is not based on harm, but benefit. I have been VERY clear throughout this entire debate that benefit is what I argue.
    Others, then, were on the "harm" angle, i.e., if you can't prove "harm" then you must make it legal. I agree that's a silly argument. I thought it was you but didn't want to look through a thousand posts to double check. I'll take your word for it.

    Nevertheless, the fact remains that if you can successfully argue that marriage is not a male/female construct for the sake of procreation, all manner of permutations become possible and I have no doubt some will offer as much in the way of "benefit" arguments that the homosexuals have, ranging from individual rights to whatever else they are advertising as the benefit of homosexual marriage to the state.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  9. #1489
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,711

    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Others, then, were on the "harm" angle, i.e., if you can't prove "harm" then you must make it legal. I agree that's a silly argument. I thought it was you but didn't want to look through a thousand posts to double check. I'll take your word for it.
    I read all of the "harm" arguments when I came online. Instead of going after each post, I just made one statement responding to you, agreeing with your assertion. It was such a recent post I would have though you'd have seen it. Many pro-SSMers don't like that I disagree with that position. Don't you think THAT'S interesting?

    Nevertheless, the fact remains that if you can successfully argue that marriage is not a male/female construct for the sake of procreation, all manner of permutations become possible and I have no doubt some will offer as much in the way of "benefit" arguments that the homosexuals have, ranging from individual rights to whatever else they are advertising as the benefit of homosexual marriage to the state.
    Actually, that's not accurate. The benefit argument for SSM is supported by quite a bit of research, None of the other permutations are... and some have research AGAINST their benefits.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #1490
    Sage
    Papa bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Midwest
    Last Seen
    06-25-15 @ 01:35 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,927

    Re: Awaiting the Supreme Court's gay marriage decisions [W:641]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I read all of the "harm" arguments when I came online. Instead of going after each post, I just made one statement responding to you, agreeing with your assertion. It was such a recent post I would have though you'd have seen it. Many pro-SSMers don't like that I disagree with that position. Don't you think THAT'S interesting?



    Actually, that's not accurate. The benefit argument for SSM is supported by quite a bit of research, None of the other permutations are... and some have research AGAINST their benefits.
    Ahh, but this paves the way. The research will begin. You pay researchers to get you the answers you want and you'll get the answers you want. It works that way on everything from global warming to all the great things homosexual marriage will do for society. It will also work for polygamous marriages. Remember.... polygamous marriages have been more common throughout history than homosexual marriages and by a wide margin. If you think the proponents of polygamy won't be in line for their share of the "hope and change", you're mistaken. And if you think they leverage the legal arguments that opened up marriage to other permutations than man/woman... again, you are mistaken. Right now homosexual marriage is en vogue but it won't be forever.

    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...iw=853&bih=626
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •