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Thread: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

  1. #71
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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    I agree.

    Those who bought these bonds made a serious mistake.



    "While it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." ~ John Stuart Mill
    Yea, how would investors know that 60 million idiots would elect a left wing, corrupt activist into a position of authority who would then go on to interfere with their bonds as part of the pay-back for the UAW's support ?

    No, you people made the mistake. Your'e just too short sighted and too indebted to a corrupt ideology to know better.

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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Yea, how would investors know that 60 million idiots would elect a left wing, corrupt activist into a position of authority who would then go on to interfere with their bonds as part of the pay-back for the UAW's support ?

    No, you people made the mistake. Your'e just too short sighted and too indebted to a corrupt ideology to know better.



    I didn't buy any of those 'iffy' bonds.

    Did you?




    Better day's are coming. ~ But not for today's out of touch, running out of time, GOP.

  3. #73
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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    The pricing I quoted was relative to the market at the time of GM's bankruptcy, not the '70's. Please try to refute the point.
    The context of the conversation was 70's cars (MustangII vs Celica), if you want to shift the discussion away from that (for which I don't blame you), fine.

    Now if you want to get into a discussion about per unit costs, we can do that. The Japanese and German industries and govts made a choice to socialize most of the legacy costs (pensions and health care) and in the case of Japan, to subsidize some of the development and production costs to help the car industry gain a market share in the US by allowing those companies to compete at below cost. They did this with radios, TV's, steel, IC's, optics...on and on. The US on the other hand decided not to this anywhere near the same extent nor did we decide to tariff those imports to bring them inline with true costs. Were the unions to blame for these macro-econ choices? I don't think so.

    The other big issue is that even with the new, much lower pay and benefits scheme forced through (without govt benefits making up for the reduced industry provided compensation) is that the reasons why people turned away from the big 3 still exist....the product does not hold up to imports, whether this is warranted or not....the perception remains. It is born out in resale values.

    So were unions to blame for this? No, as previously discussed, unions did not do engineering.

    In 1975, Congress enacted the first C.A.F.E. standards. Why don't you research that history, and how the UAW fought to keep Ford and GM from importing small cars manufactured outside the U.S.. Also look into how the DOT and the NHTSA refused to accept crash testing done outside the country before they would certify imported cars for sale in the U.S.
    Why would anyone who has an interest in keeping manufacturing in the US want an easier time for imports? How does that counter what I am arguing?

    The designs were junk. No argument there. But it's very clear you are unfamiliar with the facts as they stood in the '70's and beyond, and the role the UAW played in damaging the US auto industry, allong (sic) with the resulting loss of market share that followed.

    FFS, get informed.
    I'm still waiting for you to show that exact point.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  4. #74
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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    The context of the conversation was 70's cars (MustangII vs Celica), if you want to shift the discussion away from that (for which I don't blame you), fine.

    Now if you want to get into a discussion about per unit costs, we can do that. The Japanese and German industries and govts made a choice to socialize most of the legacy costs (pensions and health care) and in the case of Japan, to subsidize some of the development and production costs to help the car industry gain a market share in the US by allowing those companies to compete at below cost. They did this with radios, TV's, steel, IC's, optics...on and on. The US on the other hand decided not to this anywhere near the same extent nor did we decide to tariff those imports to bring them inline with true costs. Were the unions to blame for these macro-econ choices? I don't think so.

    The other big issue is that even with the new, much lower pay and benefits scheme forced through (without govt benefits making up for the reduced industry provided compensation) is that the reasons why people turned away from the big 3 still exist....the product does not hold up to imports, whether this is warranted or not....the perception remains. It is born out in resale values.

    So were unions to blame for this? No, as previously discussed, unions did not do engineering.

    Why would anyone who has an interest in keeping manufacturing in the US want an easier time for imports? How does that counter what I am arguing?

    I'm still waiting for you to show that exact point.

    You are grossly uninformed about the auto industry and the relationship of the UAW and the auto makers. Evidence of that is the statement regarding the new lower pay and benefits plan "forced" through.

    If you were informed, you'd know the 2007 GM-UAW North American labor contract was carried over when GM went into bankruptcy. This two tier system also required workers laid off to be the first hired, which meant very little was done to lower labor costs.

    GM and UAW reach first labor deal since bankruptcy | Reuters

    Going farther back in history, you'd know one of the biggest sticking points in labor contracts was pay and bonuses to line workers based on productivity and quality.

    The UAW resisted efforts to streamline production, and to create multi-model assembly plants similar to those run by the Japanese. Where Toyota can assemble multi models on one production line, US auto makers are primarily forced to have one assembly plant assemble one model of vehicle. If that model doesn't sell well, the entire plant is impacted, rather than a single model within the production mix.

    How is it that Honda can build cars in the United States with better quality than GM could? Do they have better engineers? When GM has the largest pension liability of any company in the United States, how much money do you think they have to engineer a car?

    You keep posting from emotion, rather than from facts. You should try to limit the former and enhance the latter.

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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    You are grossly uninformed about the auto industry and the relationship of the UAW and the auto makers. Evidence of that is the statement regarding the new lower pay and benefits plan "forced" through.

    If you were informed, you'd know the 2007 GM-UAW North American labor contract was carried over when GM went into bankruptcy. This two tier system also required workers laid off to be the first hired, which meant very little was done to lower labor costs.

    GM and UAW reach first labor deal since bankruptcy | Reuters
    I know that the pensions/legacy costs going forward have been dramatically reduced, bringing the direct costs to GM/Ford inline with the foreign builders operating in the US.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/bu...rdt.html?_r=1&


    Going farther back in history, you'd know one of the biggest sticking points in labor contracts was pay and bonuses to line workers based on productivity and quality.
    No chit....and your point is what...that wasn't discussed in my previous point?

    The UAW resisted efforts to streamline production, and to create multi-model assembly plants similar to those run by the Japanese. Where Toyota can assemble multi models on one production line, US auto makers are primarily forced to have one assembly plant assemble one model of vehicle. If that model doesn't sell well, the entire plant is impacted, rather than a single model within the production mix.
    You bring nothing forward to support this claim, further the NUNNI program in CA was very successful, union workers had no problem adapting and wanted to be able to input assembly modifications that standard GM line work did not allow.

    How is it that Honda can build cars in the United States with better quality than GM could? Do they have better engineers?
    I would imagine that the brain pool is probably slightly ahead in many of Japan's builders, the issue is the design choices, what on the draft actually gets into the car. Again, the line workers do not decide this.

    When GM has the largest pension liability of any company in the United States, how much money do you think they have to engineer a car?
    I think I addressed that in the previous post, which you seemed to have nearly completely ignored. If the US builders and govt decide not to work together as the foreign companies have, is that the fault of the unions? No, I don't think so.

    You keep posting from emotion, rather than from facts. You should try to limit the former and enhance the latter.
    Your stupid little quips don't amount to anything, this along with your "get an education" are the same kind of crap that got Conservative lots and lots of infractions. Resorting to this personal ad hominums will come back to get you too.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  6. #76
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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    I know that the pensions/legacy costs going forward have been dramatically reduced, bringing the direct costs to GM/Ford inline with the foreign builders operating in the US.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/bu...rdt.html?_r=1&


    No chit....and your point is what...that wasn't discussed in my previous point?

    You bring nothing forward to support this claim, further the NUNNI program in CA was very successful, union workers had no problem adapting and wanted to be able to input assembly modifications that standard GM line work did not allow.

    I would imagine that the brain pool is probably slightly ahead in many of Japan's builders, the issue is the design choices, what on the draft actually gets into the car. Again, the line workers do not decide this.

    I think I addressed that in the previous post, which you seemed to have nearly completely ignored. If the US builders and govt decide not to work together as the foreign companies have, is that the fault of the unions? No, I don't think so.

    Your stupid little quips don't amount to anything, this along with your "get an education" are the same kind of crap that got Conservative lots and lots of infractions. Resorting to this personal ad hominums will come back to get you too.


    You haven't addressed anything. Legacy costs have been dramatically reduced? Then why did GM report in their latest quarterly statement their unfunded pension liability is higher than it was when they declared bankruptcy?

    Earnings Releases - Quarterly Reports & Financial Releases | GM.com

    Hey, you are welcome to whatever truth you want to believe. It seems your handle could be a bit of false advertising, since you reject whatever truth does'nt fit your agenda.

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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    You haven't addressed anything. Legacy costs have been dramatically reduced? Then why did GM report in their latest quarterly statement their unfunded pension liability is higher than it was when they declared bankruptcy?

    Earnings Releases - Quarterly Reports & Financial Releases | GM.com

    Hey, you are welcome to whatever truth you want to believe. It seems your handle could be a bit of false advertising, since you reject whatever truth does'nt fit your agenda.
    Again, you totally ignore the context, the context was for new hires going forward, they have very little of the same pension benefits as past gens did....and again, there has been no replacement of those benefits through govt socializing as in other countries. It is a flat out elimination of said pensions.

    Now tell me AGAIN that I am not addressing something because you decide to ignore what I write...over and over.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  8. #78
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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Again, you totally ignore the context, the context was for new hires going forward, they have very little of the same pension benefits as past gens did....and again, there has been no replacement of those benefits through govt socializing as in other countries. It is a flat out elimination of said pensions.

    Now tell me AGAIN that I am not addressing something because you decide to ignore what I write...over and over.
    Read the UAW contract. There are very few new hires at the lower wage, because the contract required GM to provide jobs to existing workers first. Frankly, I don't have a problem with that, but that didn't address pay issues.

    As to elimination of pensions, where are you getting that? Perhaps that may occur at some point many, many years down the road, but it's not true right now.

    The UAW has been under a "no strike" agreement that along with the gift of 18% of GM in the taxpayer bailout. They have already push a 25% increase in the starting pay of new hires. They are expected to push for additional benefits as they come out from under the shadow of this no strike provision.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/business/02uaw.html

    GM Hourly | UAW

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