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Thread: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Uh...if you hadn't noticed, mileage is mostly a matter of power AND weight. Weight was always the issue, that is always a matter of design. But you just admitted, they were locked into a 0.50 cent/gallon mentality, big and heavy.....while EVERYONE went light and small. GM's answer was the Chevette or Vega. It was not the unions designing this.
    The labor cost per vehicle caused by the UAW made it impossible for American auto manufacturers to make any profit on small cars. In order to generate profits needed for the development of new technologies, US auto makers had to sell big cars and trucks that carried high profits. The labor cost for a Chevette was not that much lower than the labor cost for a 1/2 ton pickup truck.

    Union pay and benefits caused a drain on capital needed to meet the changing demand of the US car buyers. That truth continues to cause GM trouble today.

    It's rather clear you are not familiar with the auto industry. Perhaps you should take some time to get familiar.

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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    lazy losers



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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    The labor cost per vehicle caused by the UAW made it impossible for American auto manufacturers to make any profit on small cars. In order to generate profits needed for the development of new technologies, US auto makers had to sell big cars and trucks that carried high profits. The labor cost for a Chevette was not that much lower than the labor cost for a 1/2 ton pickup truck.

    Union pay and benefits caused a drain on capital needed to meet the changing demand of the US car buyers. That truth continues to cause GM trouble today.

    It's rather clear you are not familiar with the auto industry. Perhaps you should take some time to get familiar.
    Um...it was not the price of the price of US vehicles in the 70's and 80's that caused the market share losses. It was the designs that turned off buyers. In 1976 a Mustang II cost less than a Celica, and I drove and worked on both, there is no comparison. The Mustang was a shrunk down version of it's Falcon past, a rebodied Pinto....while the Celica was running the fantastic 20R and smooth 5 speed. The Celica was so solid. The Celica was easy to work on (if you ever had to) whereas the Mustang had a joke of an emissions system and could barely get out of its own way.
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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Um...it was not the price of the price of US vehicles in the 70's and 80's that caused the market share losses. It was the designs that turned off buyers. In 1976 a Mustang II cost less than a Celica, and I drove and worked on both, there is no comparison. The Mustang was a shrunk down version of it's Falcon past, a rebodied Pinto....while the Celica was running the fantastic 20R and smooth 5 speed. The Celica was so solid. The Celica was easy to work on (if you ever had to) whereas the Mustang had a joke of an emissions system and could barely get out of its own way.
    The Mustang II, along with such winners as the VEGA, and others from Detroit were built as a direct result of their response to the OPEC oil crisis and rapid increases in gas prices. These cars were rushed through development to try and hang on to market share.

    The Japanese had long perfected small car production due to the price of gasoline in Japan.

    It takes 3-5 years to bring a new car and new technology to market. Throw in $1-3 billion in cost, and it takes a pile of profit to generate the money needed for product development. Hard to make any money when massive labor costs have to be buried in a car selling for $12,000 wholesale, versus an almost similar labor cost in a larger vehicle selling for twice as much.

    Managment certainly must carry some of the blame, but there is absolutlely no way to sugar coat UAW strong arm tactics that used strikes to create such abomanations as the Jobs Bank program.

    You need to get more informed on the auto industry.

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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Managment certainly must carry some of the blame, but there is absolutlely no way to sugar coat UAW strong arm tactics that used strikes to create such abomanations as the Jobs Bank program.
    We can blame the union for asking for the moon. But the blame really lies on the people who gave it to them.
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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    When I think of the design of an automobile, I think of how it looks not how cheaply it's made. Your pointing out that it means workmanship and mpg doesn't change anything I've said.
    True. You still said what you said, but he's right to point out that materials, mpg, and quality are the result of design.
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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    We can blame the union for asking for the moon. But the blame really lies on the people who gave it to them.
    I can't completely agree with that Maggie.

    When the UAW closed production plants to strike for what they wanted, it's a bit tough to blame only the people who gave in to their demands.

    Strikes and threats of strikes caused management at the big three to conceed to many demands that later devastated the domestic industry.

    In 1998, the UAW strike against GM lasted 54 days.

    10 things to know about historic 1998 UAW strike against General Motors in Flint (with photo gallery from strike) | MLive.com

    •During the 1998 strike, 3,400 workers at Flint Metal Center walked off the job to join the picket line on June 5. Less than a week later, 5,800 workers from Flint East joined them, bringing the total number of striking workers to 9,200.
    •The 54-day strike by the United Auto Workers union against General Motors was the longest GM strike since 1970, when work stopped for 67 days (Sept. 14-Nov. 23).

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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    We can blame the union for asking for the moon. But the blame really lies on the people who gave it to them.
    Hey. Don't look at me !! I have blamed the Democrats from day 1.

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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    We can blame the union for asking for the moon. But the blame really lies on the people who gave it to them.
    Are you really that simplistic in your thinking?? The fact that the two ( union and management) would not work toward a solution that works for all is a combined failure. The unions proved is was better for them to force the company into bankruptcy than have a contract that would keep the company in business.

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    Re: Emergency manager: Detroit won't pay $2.5B it owes

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    The Mustang II, along with such winners as the VEGA, and others from Detroit were built as a direct result of their response to the OPEC oil crisis and rapid increases in gas prices. These cars were rushed through development to try and hang on to market share.

    The Japanese had long perfected small car production due to the price of gasoline in Japan.

    It takes 3-5 years to bring a new car and new technology to market. Throw in $1-3 billion in cost, and it takes a pile of profit to generate the money needed for product development. Hard to make any money when massive labor costs have to be buried in a car selling for $12,000 wholesale, versus an almost similar labor cost in a larger vehicle selling for twice as much.

    Managment certainly must carry some of the blame, but there is absolutlely no way to sugar coat UAW strong arm tactics that used strikes to create such abomanations as the Jobs Bank program.

    You need to get more informed on the auto industry.
    LOL...a $12K car cost...in the mid 70's? And I need to "be more informed"?

    FFS!

    Again, the unions did not cause the market share losses, the crap designs did. The domestic builders had euro and south american designs in hand, already developed (that is how the Chevette came to be), it was the corporate hubris that stopped innovation in Detroit...not the unions.
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    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
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    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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