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Thread: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

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    Re: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Islamic fundementalism is them wanting to oppress others.
    That doesn't mean the fundamentalism didn't gain in popularity without certain triggers.
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    Re: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    This is far to broad a statement. The TYPE of "oppression" really needs to be considered before you address the state responsibility.
    Let's take a look at Iran as an example. The US government meddled in the affairs of that State since the 50s. It helped reinstate and prop up the Shah of Iran who oppressed his people. Our CIA helped train the SAVAK which imprisoned and tortured Iranians. The resentment that country felt towards the US is well-founded, though it does not excuse the hostage-taking which later occurred. But it does help explain why it happened.


    In the case of Radical Islam the state "oppression" can come in the form of a moderate state refusing to enforce Islam as the state religion. How would you address this?
    Can you give a specific example?
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    Re: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Let's take a look at Iran as an example. The US government meddled in the affairs of that State since the 50s. It helped reinstate and prop up the Shah of Iran who oppressed his people. Our CIA helped train the SAVAK which imprisoned and tortured Iranians. The resentment that country felt towards the US is well-founded, though it does not excuse the hostage-taking which later occurred. But it does help explain why it happened.
    This is a woefully simplistic view of the Iranian revolution. The Ayatollah first gained prominence in Iran for opposing the Shah's reforms in 1963 to open Iran's political and land holding structure to allow minority religions to hold public office. His resistance to the Shah's efforts to moderate the Iranian state was what fed the 1979 revolution. Khomeini then lead violent riots against the Shah which ended in him being arrested. In other words, the exact opposite of your hypothesis occurred in Iran. Islamic Radical demands for continued oppression of religious minorities in Iran was he spark that lead to revolution in 1979.


    Can you give a specific example?

    See above.

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    Re: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    This is a woefully simplistic view of the Iranian revolution. The Ayatollah first gained prominence in Iran for opposing the Shah's reforms in 1963 to open Iran's political and land holding structure to allow minority religions to hold public office. His resistance to the Shah's efforts to moderate the Iranian state was what fed the 1979 revolution. Khomeini then lead violent riots against the Shah which ended in him being arrested. In other words, the exact opposite of your hypothesis occurred in Iran. Islamic Radical demands for continued oppression of religious minorities in Iran was he spark that lead to revolution in 1979.
    First of all, nothing you had written disproved anything I wrote. Secondly, this does not explain the general hatred towards the US government.


    1950-51 - BP (a British govt controlled company) controlled nearly all of Iran's oil assets. Iran saw nearly none of the profits. Mossadeq nationalized the oil fields in 1951 which led to Britain boycotting Iran and destabilizing its economy.

    1953 - Britain looked to US to help them. The CIA staged a coup to overthrow the Prime Minister and the democratic part of the government to reinstate the Shah. The CIA trained the SAVAK, the secret police force so they could torture, imprison, and execute dissenters. Poverty and oppression grew.

    1979 - The Iranian Revolution is born out of anger and hatred towards their puppet govt, the US, and UK.

    This is not to say Khomeini and his followers were in any way 'good guys.' But it gives context into understanding why this particular ME country does not trust the Western Powers.
    Last edited by Geoist; 06-24-13 at 04:37 PM.
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    Re: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    That doesn't mean the fundamentalism didn't gain in popularity without certain triggers.
    A prophet who claimed that anyone who didnt agree with him should be killed. Thats the trigger.

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    Re: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    A prophet who claimed that anyone who didnt agree with him should be killed. Thats the trigger.
    And almost no one would have given such a loon power unless there were OTHER triggers.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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    Re: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    First of all, nothing you had written disproved anything I wrote. Secondly, this does not explain the general hatred towards the US government.


    1950-51 - BP (a British govt controlled company) controlled nearly all of Iran's oil assets. Iran saw nearly none of the profits. Mossadeq nationalized the oil fields in 1951 which led to Britain boycotting Iran and destabilizing its economy.

    1953 - Britain looked to US to help them. The CIA staged a coup to overthrow the Prime Minister and the democratic part of the government to reinstate the Shah. The CIA trained the SAVAK, the secret police force so they could torture, imprison, and execute dissenters. Poverty and oppression grew.

    1979 - The Iranian Revolution is born out of anger and hatred towards their puppet govt, the US, and UK.

    This is not to say Khomeini and his followers were in any way 'good guys.' But it gives context into understanding why this particular ME country does not trust the Western Powers.

    Of course it does!

    The Ayatollah Khomeini -- you know, the guy that started the Iranian Revolution -- was fighting for the primacy of Iranian rule and the subjugation of minority religions. That's it. The entirety of the revolution's grievances against the Shah.

    Your "evidence" doesn't amount to anything. Your repeated factoid about the SAVAK is also classic misdirection and less than even half truths. The Islamic Radicals in Iran were far more brutal to the Iranian people than the SAVAK ever were, as bad as the SAVAK was by Western standards. I mean, the threat to Iranian WOMEN was far more immediate from Islamic Radicals... so why is it that the Islamic radicals in Iran got the support in the revolution? It wasn't because of money. It was because they were sold on the idea of the Shah being the death of Islam in Iran.

    This peace loving anti-oppression Islamic "movement", fresh off of the victory in January 1979, celebrated by executing 5 human rights workers to kick off a 40 year festival of oppressive violence in the name of Allah that dwarfed anything the Shah ever did.

    But then that is because the revolution was about saving Islam from the Shah's modernization and not saving Iranians from oppression.

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    Re: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    And almost no one would have given such a loon power unless there were OTHER triggers.
    Whats your point?

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    Re: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Of course it does!

    The Ayatollah Khomeini -- you know, the guy that started the Iranian Revolution -- was fighting for the primacy of Iranian rule and the subjugation of minority religions. That's it. The entirety of the revolution's grievances against the Shah.
    And he most like would have never been given the power if it wasn't for US and UK involvement in Iran. That is the point I am making.

    Your repeated factoid about the SAVAK is also classic misdirection and less than even half truths.
    Everything I said is well acknowledged by historians.

    The Islamic Radicals in Iran were far more brutal to the Iranian people than the SAVAK ever were, as bad as the SAVAK was by Western standards.
    Did the US government fund the Islamic radicals? No. That is not the issue that pissed off Iranians.

    I mean, the threat to Iranian WOMEN was far more immediate from Islamic Radicals... so why is it that the Islamic radicals in Iran got the support in the revolution?
    It wasn't because of money. It was because they were sold on the idea of the Shah being the death of Islam in Iran.
    Why is it Germany supported Hitler? They were desperate. They looked to a leader who would take them out of destitution.



    This peace loving anti-oppression Islamic "movement", fresh off of the victory in January 1979, celebrated by executing
    Never claimed it was a peaceful movement.

    But then that is because the revolution was about saving Islam from the Shah's modernization and not saving Iranians from oppression.
    So the taking of US hostages was what? Another attack on the Shah's policies? Please.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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    Re: US will supply military weapons to the Syrian rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Whats your point?
    Point being interventionism was a major trigger for the growing hatred and radicalization against the US.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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