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Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

And this is where you have failed. When a person starts attacking another persons spelling then it is a sure sign that they have no actual truthful arguement.

Because of this I think I have drummed you enough. Cya! :2wave:

I thought it was when I proved that you didn't know how the American government worked, how laws are made, how they're stricken down, and how things are shown to be legal or illegal. Are you sure you're a judge?
 
Really? Those federal judges just need more education from His Honorable Kal'Stang from www.debatepolitics.com huh? Those federal judges who oversaw this and ruled on its behalf must need to go to your Bonners Ferry law school, I guess.



Ummm....sure? If a judge found it to be legal, guess what? It would be legal. Do you even know what legal means? There seems to be a huge group of you here that think "illegal" just means "I don't like it" and "legal" means "I like it". Honestly, do you know what legal and illegal mean? Christ.

Judge's decisions are wrong and overturned y higher courts routinely. If the losing side of a decision has a reasonable good case, they can go to an appeals court and have enforcement of the first decision stayed until their appeal is held. Until the Supreme Court either decides to not hear a case (thereby upholding a prior decision by taking no action) or renders a decision, a judge's
decision is not the final word as long as their is an appeal process.

With the FISA process, the whole process is secret, so appeals are usually impossible, unless the information somehow comes out. But just because a a secret court decision is secret that does not mean that their decision is correct or final.

Also, the fourth amendment is in plain English and is quite clear and specific. It was added by demand of the people at the time, not because it was supported by politicians. One doesn't have to be a lawyer or judge to know when it is being violated.
 
Judge's decisions are wrong and overturned y higher courts routinely. If the losing side of a decision has a reasonable good case, they can go to an appeals court and have enforcement of the first decision stayed until their appeal is held. Until the Supreme Court either decides to not hear a case (thereby upholding a prior decision by taking no action) or renders a decision, a judge's
decision is not the final word as long as their is an appeal process.

If there's not final word, why are all these people calling it illegal? Hmmm.

With the FISA process, the whole process is secret, so appeals are usually impossible, unless the information somehow comes out. But just because a a secret court decision is secret that does not mean that their decision is correct or final.

Nothing is ever final. Theft could be legal in 2050. I'm not going to call it legal now, though. Will you?

Also, the fourth amendment is in plain English and is quite clear and specific. It was added by demand of the people at the time, not because it was supported by politicians. One doesn't have to be a lawyer or judge to know when it is being violated.

Yes, actually they do, because 'probable cause' is subjective and we actually have people whose job it is to judge which is which. Their job is not to post on the internet without knowing what the purpose of the FISA court is.
 
You just give opinions, do you understand? You give opinions to your friends and people on the internet. At no point to you dictate what is and isn't legal or constitutional. I'm sorry.

All anyone does here is provide their opinions, including you. His opinion is at least as valid as yours. People who are arrogant and rude do not contribute to the discussion in a useful way.
 
I don't know of any criteria that would indicate that Britain or Canada is freer than the USA. They both have restrictions on free speech and press that most Americans would not accept. AFAIK they don't have any freedoms that we don't have.
 
All anyone does here is provide their opinions, including you. His opinion is at least as valid as yours. People who are arrogant and rude do not contribute to the discussion in a useful way.

He's very rude and arrogant and I can definitely be a dick back (almost a decade in the army can do that) but no, his opinion is not as valid as mine. His opinion that it's 'illegal' is factually wrong. My opinion that it is legal is factually right. It can change in the future, just as anything can, but right now it's wrong, and that's not really a debate.
 
Sensebrenner is
trying to walk it back. IMO he is a statist dirtbag for having authored it. It is perversely humorous to see him squirm. I don't believe a word he says.

Oh I beleive him far more than I beleive anyone in the Obama administration.

First off, if you read article 215 in the Patriot Act it clearly spells out the limitations of what the NSA can do.

Lets see, the Obama administration is in the middle of a scandal where they sic'ed the IRS on their political opponents and on any American who chose to organize a grass roots Conservative PAC.

Only ideologues and idiots believe anything that comes out of Obama's mouth.
 
I don't know of any criteria that would indicate that Britain or Canada is freer than the USA. They both have restrictions on free speech and press that most Americans would not accept. AFAIK they don't have any freedoms that we don't have.

I don't know of anyone that said that. That wasn't the question. What is with you guys here changing the goalposts every other post? Look back at what he asked.
 
And the law has not been found unconstitutional

LOL!

a law does not have to be overturned by the supremes to be held by the fisa court "unreasonable under the 4th amendment"

you don't know what you're talking about
 
He's very rude and arrogant and I can definitely be a dick back (almost a decade in the army can do that) but no, his opinion is not as valid as mine.

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

You have forsaken the oath you took when you enlisted. You openly acknowledge the Constitution is a "means to and end." You are sworn, first and foremost, to protect the Constitution (and the rights contained within). You should be retroactively discharged for dereliction of duty. Good day, and gg.
 
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

You have forsaken the oath you took when you enlisted. You openly acknowledge the Constitution is a "means to and end." You are sworn, first and foremost, to protect the Constitution (and the rights contained within). You should be retroactively discharged for dereliction of duty. Good day, and gg.

Nah, I have a clearance and still work for them. The constitution isn't a holy document, get over it dude.
 
Oh I beleive him far more than I beleive anyone in the Obama administration.

First off, if you read article 215 in the Patriot Act it clearly spells out the limitations of what the NSA can do.

Lets see, the Obama administration is in the middle of a scandal where they sic'ed the IRS on their political opponents and on any American who chose to organize a grass roots Conservative PAC.

Only ideologues and idiots believe anything that comes out of Obama's mouth.

Only ideologues and idiots believe anything out of the mouth of ANY politician, though there are a few exceptions.
 
Nah, I have a clearance and still work for them. The constitution isn't a holy document, get over it dude.

No one care about your cynical attitude. Apparent you either didn't take an oath, or don't give a **** about it.
 
No one care about your cynical attitude. Apparent you either didn't take an oath, or don't give a **** about it.

You care while your metadata is being legally collected, lol.

How's that hero of yours Snowden doing?
 
clapper swears the nsa got zazi and headley

he's lying again

why can't the nsa name one case where prism and boundless made a difference?

why is the nsa reduced to false triumphs?

Senators challenge NSA's claim to have foiled 'dozens' of terror attacks | World news | guardian.co.uk

Two prominent Senate critics of the NSA's dragnet surveillance have challenged the agency's assertion that the spy efforts helped stop "dozens" of terror attacks.

Mark Udall and Ron Wyden, both members of the Senate intelligence committee, said they were not convinced by the testimony of the NSA director, General Keith Alexander, on Capitol Hill on Wednesday, who claimed that evidence gleaned from surveillance helped thwart attacks in the US.

"We have not yet seen any evidence showing that the NSA's dragnet collection of Americans' phone records has produced any uniquely valuable intelligence," they said in a statement released on Thursday ahead of a widely anticipated briefing for US senators about the National Security Agency's activities.

"When you're talking about important liberties that the American people feel strongly about, and you want to have an intelligence program, you've got to make a case for why it provides unique value to the [intelligence] community atop what they can already have," Wyden, an Oregon Democrat, told the Guardian in an interview on Thursday.

Alexander testified before the Senate appropriations committee that maintaining a database of millions of Americans' phone records was critical to thwarting "dozens" of plots. One of the examples Alexander mentioned, the case of would-be New York subway bomber Najibullah Zazi, appears to have been prevented by conventional police surveillance, including efforts by UK investigators.

"Gen Alexander's testimony yesterday suggested that the NSA's bulk phone records collection program helped thwart 'dozens' of terrorist attacks, but all of the plots that he mentioned appear to have been identified using other collection methods," Wyden and Udall said in a statement. "The public deserves a clear explanation."

"I have real reservations that the argument that they can't be evaluated separately," Wyden said. "If a program provides unique value, the people running it ought to explain it. I'm certainly open to doing that in a classified setting, and I know of a program where they haven't done it."

Wyden said he could not elaborate on what that program is, citing its classified nature.

"If they claim that this program has lots of safeguards, wouldn't you expect they would detail them – 'Here are the procedures for following up on an individual'?" Wyden said. "This is certainly an issue I have a strong interest in."

wyden and udall outlined their objections and inquiries after alexander's closed door, confidential briefing yesterday

alexander's the guy who lied (14 times) to hank johnson in sworn testimony in march, 2012 (multiple links above)

it was a series of statements by alexander which wyden knew were wrong ("the story we have millions or hundreds of thousands of dossiers on people is absolutely false," the nsa was only collecting data from "bad guys") that prompted wyden to confront clapper this march, producing those now famous prevarications

"not wittingly" was the "least untruthful answer" clapper could afford

"this was started by general alexander's comment in a public forum, that's why i think now we're going to have some pubic hearings," says the uber lib from oregon

jeff i-never-heard-of-prism merkley is speaking out in support of his 4th amendment amigos

wyden: the public deserves a clear explanation

don't YOU?

obama wants an open debate

don't YOU?

either way, here we go
 
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It has nothing to do with what I think should be illegal or not. Fact of the matter is that in order to issue ANY warrant the 4th Amendment states that there must be probable cause.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Again, I challenge you and anyone else to show me the probable cause for searching my phone records. (I am a verizon customer and have been since before 9/11)

The Fourth Amendment was being ignored and is now destroyed. All we need do is look at those lineups of people being searched at airports where next to no probable cause exists. Other Amendments are certainly in jeopardy as well.
 
Man, does Washington assume the masses (and their representatives) are IDIOTS.

These surveillance techniques saved terrorist attacks?

Whatever.

Any idiot can claim something he knows that he never has to prove.


And there comes a point, IMO, where too much intrusion is no longer worth it...no matter how proven the techniques.


There is NO WAY to be completely safe from terrorist attacks.

And so long as America runs around the world, bombing innocent people and propping up horrible regimes (like Saudi Arabia) - I expect that more Americans will be killed by terrorists.

That is the price you pay for having such a pathetic foreign policy.


But I am not prepared to give up my freedoms for that security.

And if that means a greater risk of attack...so be it.


Liberty and Freedom should NEVER be compromised out of fear...or the terrorists win without firing a shot.
 
nyt tuesday: making alberto gonzales look good

Making Alberto Gonzales Look Good, Did James Clapper Lie to Ron Wyden? - NYTimes.com

Government officials employ various tactics to avoid actually saying anything at intelligence hearings, mostly by fogging up the room with references to national security and with vague generalities. It’s part of a dance, which the public and the media may grumble about but which we also expect.

Outright lying is another matter.

On March 12, James Clapper, director of national intelligence, testified at an open congressional hearing. Senator Ron Wyden, Democrat of Oregon, asked him whether the National Security Agency collects “any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans.”

His answer: “No sir.” Then he added: “Not wittingly.”

It was a lie, as everyone now knows from the articles about the N.S.A.’s data-mining program.

Mr. Wyden knew it wasn’t true at the time, since he is on the Senate Intelligence Committee and is privy to secret briefings from people like, well, Mr. Clapper.

On Sunday, NBC’s Andrea Mitchell asked Mr. Clapper about the exchange.

“First, I have great respect for Senator Wyden,” Mr. Clapper said, using a Washington code phrase to indicate that he has no respect for the senator. “I thought, though in retrospect, I was asked ‘when are you going to start–stop beating your wife’ kind of question, which is, meaning not answerable necessarily, by a simple yes or no. So I responded in what I thought was the most truthful or least untruthful manner, by saying, ‘No.’”

Mr. Clapper further explained his least-untruthiness by saying he thought Mr. Wyden was asking whether the N.S.A. was actually listening to phone conversations (which Mr. Wyden clearly was not). “Going back to my metaphor, what I was thinking of is looking at the Dewey Decimal numbers of those books in the metaphorical library,” he said. “To me collection of U.S. persons data would mean taking the books off the shelf, opening it up and reading it.”

Senator Dianne Feinstein defended Mr. Clapper, saying “you can misunderstand the question.” But what’s so muddy about “any type of data at all"? Besides, Mr. Wyden said in a statement on Tuesday that he actually sent the question to Mr. Clapper’s office a day in advance, and even gave him a chance to amend his answer. He had plenty of time to consider what, precisely, Mr. Wyden wanted to know.

at least gonzales, notes nyt, stuck to the fog and vague generalities

when asked the same question in 06, the glib ag dodged, "classified"

"you have to wonder about giving a position of vast responsibility to someone who can beat mr gonzales in dishonesty," concludes the lady

slate says clapper should be fired

"mr clapper’s participation in any public discussion of the limits of data mining will be of no value, since we are going to have to parse his meanings of complex words like yes and no"

how bout alexander (who fibbed to hank johnson 14 times)?

a week ago the lady's ed board found "lame" the white house rationalization that only phone numbers and not users' names were being bundled by boundless (do you disagree?)

NYT: Obama admin has lost all credibility
 
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wapo's chris cillizza, chrissy matthews' favorite:

Who had the worst week in Washington? National intelligence chief James Clapper. - The Washington Post

clapper told andrea mitchell his unwitting answer "was not technically a lie because of a semantic difference in the intelligence community about what the word 'collect' means"

cillizza:

“Least untruthful manner” is not only our favorite piece of Washington doublespeak uttered this year — it also joins “no controlling legal authority” and “it depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is” in the pantheon of political parsing.

James Clapper, for speaking in the least believable manner, you had the worst week in Washington.

do you disagree?

why can't the white house point to one case broken by prism and/or boundless?

why resort to false examples, zazi and headley?

stay tuned
 
the constitutional scholar cum cic is clueless:

President Obama’s comments condemning military sexual assault and suggesting that those convicted be punished with, among other things, a dishonorable discharge may be backfiring on his efforts to root out the growing problem.

In pretrial hearings in two cases, a Navy judge in Hawaii ruled this week that Obama had exerted “unlawful command influence” as commander-in-chief in outlining the specific “consequences” he saw fit for members of the military convicted of sexual assault.

As a result of Navy Judge Cmdr. Marcus Fulton’s rulings, the defendants in United States v. Johnson and United States v. Fuentes can’t be punitively discharged, even if they’re convicted of sexual assault. Stars and Stripes first reported on the rulings.

“I expect consequences,” Obama said at a press conference in early May that came just as the Pentagon released a report detailing rising incidences of sexual assaults in 2012. “So I don’t just want more speeches or awareness programs or training, but ultimately folks look the other way. If we find out somebody’s engaging in this, they’ve got to be held accountable — prosecuted, stripped of their positions, court martialed, fired, dishonorably discharged. Period.”

Fulton wrote in his ruling that Obama’s comments raise “concern” because they “may indicate that a particular result is required of the military justice system.”

As soon as Obama made his off-the-cuff comment, military lawyers began to voice concern that his comments might be detrimental. “I thought of the unlawful command influence issue as soon as he spoke,” said James Mackler, a private attorney and Army reserve lawyer who was involved in sexual assault cases while on active duty.

The principle behind it is a sound principle, which is that in the military there is a lot of pressure to follow the directives of your commanders, including the president,” he said. “It’s a legitimate problem.”

As a lawyer, Obama knows to be cautious in speaking about specific cases — as he has been for the past week in not speaking out on Edward Snowden — but may not be as familiar with the military justice system, Mackler said, where unlawful command influence creates problems, as it has in these cases and likely many more to come.

Obama News: A Living Diary of the Obama Presidency - POLITICO44 - POLITICO.com

surprised?
 
Man, does Washington assume the masses (and their representatives) are IDIOTS.

These surveillance techniques saved terrorist attacks?

Whatever.

Any idiot can claim something he knows that he never has to prove.


And there comes a point, IMO, where too much intrusion is no longer worth it...no matter how proven the techniques.


There is NO WAY to be completely safe from terrorist attacks.

And so long as America runs around the world, bombing innocent people and propping up horrible regimes (like Saudi Arabia) - I expect that more Americans will be killed by terrorists.

That is the price you pay for having such a pathetic foreign policy.


But I am not prepared to give up my freedoms for that security.

And if that means a greater risk of attack...so be it.


Liberty and Freedom should NEVER be compromised out of fear...or the terrorists win without firing a shot.

Agreed, completely.

And of course the statistical probability of my being harmed in a terrorist attack are still about the same as my being struck by lightning.

But we never hear that little fact mentioned by Brian Williams or any other talking head.
 
You care while your metadata is being legally collected, lol.

How's that hero of yours Snowden doing?

Show me where I called him my hero. And BTW, legal does not mean no damage is being done. But that doesn't interest you.
 
Show me where I called him my hero. And BTW, legal does not mean no damage is being done. But that doesn't interest you.

You didn't say that at first you were leaning in the camp of throwing the guy a parade?

And yeah, I do care about damage being done, that's why I'm okay with the metadata collection: to prevent damage from being done. But before we can even get to that, people around here need to stop saying that what happened wasn't legal. It was. It is.
 
If we hear more from Snowden then it can only be a positive thing for Obama. If Snowden should speak up on the Syrian conflict then it could completely blow the cover on US intentions on Syria and then on Iran. That would definitely be in Obama's interest as it's plainly evident that he is opposed to US intervention in Syria.

It appears that Snowden is just smart enough to be able to understand all this! And what could be of greater priority to a person with his priorities than stopping another phony US led war?

We can only hope!
 
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