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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    Moscow is a country now? Damn! When the USSR broke up, it really broke up!
    Oh wow, that completely makes snowden innocent cause I put Moscow instead of Russia. Grow up.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    That all major intelligence agencies engage in acquiring information on critical capabilities, both national security and industrial, is not the issue. Such activities are not acknowledged in country-to-country dealings. Snowden not only did so at an awkward time (immediately ahead of a top-level U.S.-China meeting), he also disclosed the method used (damaging U.S. intelligence capabilities). None of this had anything to do with domestic surveillance of U.S. citizens.
    When is it NOT an awkward time to out the US spying on it's own citizens, it's allies etc?

    I have yet to run across any politically aware person (assuming foreign intelligence is also politically aware) who didn't know about the methods via previous discussion and debates surrounding the patriot act and the need for warrantless searches of phone and electronic communications data. There was nothing surprising there. The ONLY bit we didn't know about, and indeed were told was not happening, was the collection of data concerning US citizens.

    Please link to any information that he provided specific details of our intel methods that were not publicly available through congressional records, defense news outlets (eg:Janes360). Even the widespread gathering of data (intel) on US citizens was reported on, but officially denied by officials (lied). Get that? There is nothing that Snowden has revealed that hasn't been revealed again and again and again. He just did it in such a way as to get the attention of the public. That's the only difference.

    Here are some related articles from the archives...
    The NYT’s predictable revelation: new FISA law enabled massive abuses - Salon.com 2009 - passed on leaked revelations of brand new NSA domestic spying abuses, ones enabled by the 2008 FISA law. The article reports that the spying abuses are “significant and systemic“; involve improper interception of “significant amounts” of the emails and telephone calls of Americans, including purely domestic communications; and that, under Bush (prior to the new FISA...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/16/us....html?_r=2&hp& 4/2009 The National Security Agency intercepted private e-mail messages and phone calls of Americans in recent months on a scale that went beyond the broad legal limits established by Congress last year, government officials said in recent interviews.

    As for more specific information such as that supplied to Chinese media sounds specific, yet in reality there are only so many ways to hack a system, all he did was describe what path any hack has to use to get to the front door. He did not reveal the techniques used from that point on. That's where the magic happens, so to speak. As for revealing specific targets... they were national telecoms... those telecoms already knew they were being hacked.

    The only thing Snowden has done up to this point is to remove the ability of the US to deny it's actions against our constitutionally protected rights. Yet, we already knew that too..

    Everyone knew that the FISA bill which Congressional Democrats passed — and which George Bush and Dick Cheney celebrated — would enable these surveillance abuses. That was the purpose of the law: to gut the safeguards in place since the 1978 passage of FISA, destroy the crux of the oversight regime over executive surveillance of Americans, and enable and empower unchecked government spying activities. This was not an unintended and unforeseeable consequence of that bill. To the contrary, it was crystal clear that by gutting FISA’s safeguards, the Democratic Congress was making these abuses inevitable.
    Here is what it comes down to for me...

    In every case involving citizen v gov't, the benefit of doubt will always go with the citizen, my fellow American and suspicion/vigilance of the motives of gov't as a matter of patriotism.

    No gov't in the history of human civilization could be trusted with power, the less of it they have, the safer the people and their rights are. This is not ideology, this is a historically constant fact... and why innocent until PROVEN guilty is a necessary and wise cornerstone of our national foundation.

    The human condition does not change, has not changed in 12 millennia where power, greed and ambition are concerned. Tyranny ALWAYS seeks power. It is WHY we have broad protections against gov't overstep. IF Snowden has indeed supplied specific tactics and methods to undemocratic rivals, then he should be tried... if he broke laws passing classified documents to support his claim of domestic spying, he should be tried... but until that time, I stand united with my fellow citizens as a patriot against a gov't that has shown itself over the course of four decades to be increasingly incompetent, corrupted, deceitful and given to pushing against those intentionally broad protections of our rights.

    Lastly, the gov't derives it's power FROM The People... not through the vote, but through the consent of The People to BE governed. These are not political leaders, they are public servants. The ONLY patriotic position (IMHO) is to support a fair and open trial with a seriously vigilant eye towards any gov't claim. But to demonize him and declare his motives as anything but what HE says they were... to pronounce him guilty or more likely of guilt than this mockery of a gov't we have...?

    Lastly, three quick thoughts..

    I don't need my gov't to spend half a trillion dollars a year protecting me from terrorists and economic competitors for world resources when I'm 1000 times more likely to be killed by an american with a gun (pro gun btw) and have my skilled job sent overseas by big capital.

    If our best and brightest can't figure out how to target communications without impacting our rights, they're doing it wrong...

    If our gov't is so interested in what we are doing and saying in private, shouldn't we return the favor?

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Oh wow, that completely makes snowden innocent cause I put Moscow instead of Russia. Grow up.
    Sorry... you leave a door that far open someone is going to walk through it. If it hadn't been me, it would have been someone else. If you didn't notice, I feigned my own ignorance sarcastically but did not personally attack you. Others would not have done so...

    It was a joke, chill out.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Are you under the illusion that China is an ally?
    I would like to think that China is a trading partner that holds a pile of our debt. I would like to think that just as our Prez visits there and has meetings with their Prez on US soil, China is not an enemy.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I would like to think that China is a trading partner that holds a pile of our debt. I would like to think that just as our Prez visits there and has meetings with their Prez on US soil, China is not an enemy.
    China is an economic partner, nothing more positive than that.

    They are in fact, rivals. When rivals are competing for resources, ideology and military presence, wars are inevitable. Rivals turn to enemies...

    Meanwhile the international bankers and commercial military contractors cheer for war in the most patriotic tones possible.

    It is US policy to do everything they can to extend and if possible, make permanent our status as the sole superpower on the planet.. in the name of national interests (commercial dominance and subjugation or sovereign resources of other countries).

    I would like to believe that we are an enlightened people and that our checks on power are merely formality and not necessary... yet the reality is that they are more necessary now than at any time since the revolution and civil war periods.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    China is an economic partner, nothing more positive than that.

    They are in fact, rivals. When rivals are competing for resources, ideology and military presence, wars are inevitable. Rivals turn to enemies...

    Meanwhile the international bankers and commercial military contractors cheer for war in the most patriotic tones possible.

    It is US policy to do everything they can to extend and if possible, make permanent our status as the sole superpower on the planet.. in the name of national interests (commercial dominance and subjugation or sovereign resources of other countries).

    I would like to believe that we are an enlightened people and that our checks on power are merely formality and not necessary... yet the reality is that they are more necessary now than at any time since the revolution and civil war periods.
    I know I am frequently a hopeless romantic idealist, but I would like to think we seek what Washington mentioned all those years ago: honest relations with all nations, entangling alliances with none.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I know I am frequently a hopeless romantic idealist, but I would like to think we seek what Washington mentioned all those years ago: honest relations with all nations, entangling alliances with none.
    Yup, we had a chance to lead by example for hundreds of years, turning "shining beacon of freedom" into more than mythical rhetoric. Instead, in the name of economic and military superiority, have have plundered the world and toppled gov'ts and installed oppressive dictators on a scale far beyond any world power in history. If you're lucky, we just bankrupt your country and then co-opt all your natural resources and the labor to extract them in exchange for IMF and World Bank "loans".

    If you decide to nationalize your resources... prepare for the loss of any hope of freedom for your people... in the name of US interests..

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Be a romantic and idealist after 6:pm, prior to that, be a practical, pragmatic, bastard, realist.

    or vice versa

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Let's assume that was true: apparently it doesn't matter. So?
    Thats my point to that poster. He asked why would Snowden go to those countries that hate us.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    There are plenty of places that he could have gone...United Arab Emirates comes to mind....
    Too cozy with our government.



    Really?

    Edward Snowden makes new claims about American hacking in China - CBS News Video

    And during the meeting between the US and China....huh...yeah, ok.
    Wow, he said what we all already knew.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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