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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    As promised I will respond to the new issue you raised about the foundation for my statement that warrants need to be narrowly focused on each individual in order to comply with due process. I feel I have answered (or rejected the need to answer) to my satisfaction at least, all of the rest of your other points.

    I will point out the fact that (most of) the issues actually arise as the result of massive use of National Security Letters, not warrants. I nevertheless think it remains an issue of Fourth Amendment privacy protection. So an examination of the issues that led to the inclusion of the Fourth Amendment into the Bill of Rights should help explain my position.

    Unlike citizens residing in England, American colonists were subject to a general warrant issued to the agents of the King known as a Writ of Assistance. Such writs were permanent, not expiring until six months after the death of the King under whom they were issued. The writs were transferable; i.e. the holder of a writ could assign (sell or give) it to another. Any place could be searched at the whim of the holder, and searchers were not responsible for any damage they caused. Any property suspected by the holder of the writ to be “smuggled goods” could be seized and taken away.

    On February 3, 1761 James Otis, a Massachusetts lawyer, argued the case against the use of such general writs before the Superior Court of (the colony of) Massachusetts. He based his case on English common law (law established through a history of prior judicial decisions). Although he lost the case, his 5 hour oration was witnessed by John Adams, who later referred to it as “the spark that ignited the Revolution.”

    Otis’s example stoked the flames of colonial anger against such general writs to a point where many colonial legislatures passed rules limiting their issuance. His speech was a foundational element in the 1776 Virginia Declaration of Rights that stated “That general warrants, whereby any officer or messenger may be commanded to search suspected places without evidence of a fact committed, or to seize any person or persons not named, or whose offense is not particularly described and supported by evidence, are grievous and oppressive and ought not to be granted.”

    It also influenced John Adams when he authored Article XIV of the Massachusetts Declaration of Rights, later enacted into the Massachusetts Constitution in 1780. "Every subject has a right to be secure from all unreasonable searches, and seizures of his person, his houses, his papers, and all his possessions. All warrants, therefore, are contrary to this right, if the cause or foundation of them be not previously supported by oath or affirmation; and if the order in the warrant to a civil officer, to make search in suspected places, or to arrest one or more suspected persons, or to seize their property, be not accompanied with a special designation of the persons or objects of search, arrest, or seizure: and no warrant ought to be issued but in cases, and with the formalities, prescribed by the laws.”

    This history led to the specific inclusion of the Fourth Amendment to the Bill of Rights. Notice the similarities in language? “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

    Now you would have us believe that a document purporting to be a subpoena but which acts like a “general warrant,” issued based only upon a vague assumption that among ALL files and records of the calls and internet activities of ALL citizens held by any and all internet and telephone companies with business offices in America, there must be some evidence of a connection to terrorist activity and demanding they be turned over, does not circumvent our Fourth Amendment rights?

    It’s like saying that any Federal agency can claim that since it is probable evidence exists somewhere in someone’s house relating to terrorist activities, then here’s a letter notifying you to expect our visit, so please gather up ALL of your records and be prepared to hand them over to us. Where is the probable cause? Where is the specific description of the place to be searched or the things to be seized? Where is the protection from invasion of your expectation of privacy?
    Does that help?
    So it's not in the constitution. Okay.

    I'm to believe that rigid adherence to the constitution is required when it is convenient for your argument and a certain interpretation, using several handpicked contextual sources, is required when that's convenient to your argument, then? Is that what we're doing now? So you have to see how others could likewise use various contextual interpretations and come to a different conclusion, yes? Like, say, a multitude of federal judges, when they approved and re-approved this?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Then you'd think he could travel almost anywhere. Why Russia and Cuba?
    He can't travel almost everywhere. If you've done any international travel you would understand this. Planes only have certain fuel ranges.

    So if you are sitting in Hong Kong you typically can fly only a few places without being in direct reach of the US. You can't fly to Australia, can't fly east cause that'll get you to Mexico City, LA, San Fran or Chicago with a stop over Tokyo. If you can't fly east.. you only have west to go. You aren't gonna fly to Tehran (even though that would have been a coup for Iran and by Snowden not going there should tell you he's not about giving intel to "our" enemies), you aren't gonna fly to Frankfurt, Milan, London, Tel-Aviv or even Amsterdam. So Moscow is the only choice which you know US Federal Agents aren't waiting for you as Russia has already kicked out a US spy recently and are kinda pissed about that still.

    Cuba doesn't have an extradite agreement with the US. But Snowden maybe over estimating Cuba's desire to have him. Cuba could use him as a pawn to get better relations.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    He can't travel almost everywhere. If you've done any international travel you would understand this. Planes only have certain fuel ranges.

    So if you are sitting in Hong Kong you typically can fly only a few places without being in direct reach of the US. You can't fly to Australia, can't fly east cause that'll get you to Mexico City, LA, San Fran or Chicago with a stop over Tokyo. If you can't fly east.. you only have west to go. You aren't gonna fly to Tehran (even though that would have been a coup for Iran and by Snowden not going there should tell you he's not about giving intel to "our" enemies), you aren't gonna fly to Frankfurt, Milan, London, Tel-Aviv or even Amsterdam. So Moscow is the only choice which you know US Federal Agents aren't waiting for you as Russia has already kicked out a US spy recently and are kinda pissed about that still.

    Cuba doesn't have an extradite agreement with the US. But Snowden maybe over estimating Cuba's desire to have him. Cuba could use him as a pawn to get better relations.
    Right, that was the joke. The dude said that the rest of the world hates the US government. So I was only responding to that: "if that's true, why is he going to Cuba and Russia, why not go anywhere else?"

    Of course, that poster (whose name I forget and since it's not on this page, I can't scroll back to see it) isn't gonna respond, because he knows he pretty much made himself look stupid with that. But yeah, I absolutely know what you're saying, I wasn't really arguing otherwise.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    He was indicted for talking to a journalist and won the case. What do you want? lol You don't even want accusations of treason and espionage to be investigated and tried? hahahahahaha
    Drake was crushed by the Government.. he is black balled and he didn't win his case.. Government forced him to take a plea deal.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Right, that was the joke. The dude said that the rest of the world hates the US government. So I was only responding to that: "if that's true, why is he going to Cuba and Russia, why not go anywhere else?"

    Of course, that poster (whose name I forget and since it's not on this page, I can't scroll back to see it) isn't gonna respond, because he knows he pretty much made himself look stupid with that. But yeah, I absolutely know what you're saying, I wasn't really arguing otherwise.
    Most of the world does hate the US, but the US has massive presence in most of the world too. Nothing like CIA agents showing up when you land at Frankfurt. CIA is heavily watched in Moscow so it was a cya choice not a limited freedom thing.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So it's not in the constitution. Okay.

    I'm to believe that rigid adherence to the constitution is required when it is convenient for your argument and a certain interpretation, using several handpicked contextual sources, is required when that's convenient to your argument, then? Is that what we're doing now? So you have to see how others could likewise use various contextual interpretations and come to a different conclusion, yes? Like, say, a multitude of federal judges, when they approved and re-approved this?
    Amazing how you can extrapolate the exact opposite position from any clearly delineated argument in order to arrive at whatever position you are advocating. This is why it is so difficult to try to reason with you. No matter what is said, what information is provided, you merely blink and see exactly what you want to see. (SIGH).

    Okay, now I do toss in the towel. Not in defeat, but simply in frustration after coming to the realization I am actually just talking to a stone wall pretending to be a rational human being.

    Best wishes.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Most of the world does hate the US....
    Nope....Not even close...Maybe a bit of projection going on with you here....

    The harshest views of America are in, no surprises, the Middle East and South Asia. Egyptians, Jordanians, Turks and Pakistanis all seem to see the United States in an overwhelmingly unfavorable light. As Turkey’s economy grows, its foreign policy becomes more assertive and democratization gives the Turkish people a stronger role in government, the negative view of the U.S. there could become more important for the world.
    Still, it’s important not to make the mistake of confusing these four anti-American countries, which have their own reasons for disliking the U.S. (drones in Pakistan, perceived support for Hosni Mubarak in Egypt), with the entire Middle East or “Muslim world.” Indonesia and India, which have two of the largest Muslim populations in the world, both returned mildly positive views of America. Views vary even in the Arab Middle East; Tunisians and Lebanese seemed ambivalent, reporting roughly equivalent favorable and unfavorable numbers. And Nigerians, half of whom are Muslim, positively beam pro-Americanism: They report a more favorable view of the U.S. than Americans themselves do.
    So who seems to like America? It’s a long list – longer than you might expect. To give a comparative sense, recent polls find that Americans give President Obama 59 percent “favorable” and 40 percent “unfavorable” ratings. And he just won reelection, so we can say those are pretty good numbers. America scores similar favorability ratings in a few countries we might assume, wrongly, don’t like us so much: Mexico, despite U.S. immigration policies targeting Mexicans, and Russia, where President Vladimir Putin has pushed some populist anti-Americanism. We are also moderately liked in the post-Soviet state of Ukraine, in Brazil and in the United Kingdom. I thought we’d be more popular in the U.K., where politicians make a big deal out of the “special relationship” with Washington. It’s possible that there’s still some sense that once-great Britain is being led around by its former colony (I’ve heard some Brits worry about becoming the “51st state”), as well as lingering resentment over the view that the U.K. was pulled into the Iraq War.
    The U.S. is most popular in continental Europe and sub-Saharan Africa, as well as the northeast Asian countries of South Korea and Japan. Those latter two are interesting cases: Both are pro-American democracies still defended by a large U.S. military presence. But that military presence forcibly occupied Japan only two generations ago (though it helped to build democracy there), and in South Korea it propped up a long-running dictatorship; Japanese and Koreans occasionally protest the American bases. The remarkably pro-Americanism of sub-Saharan Africa is its own interesting phenomenon; it’s shown up in many more surveys than just this one. Many Africans, I’ve been told by scholars of the region, are keenly aware of how well African Americans have been doing since the civil rights movement, and see it as a point of African pride that the leader of the world’s most powerful country has roots in their continent.
    The few countries that seem ambivalent toward the U.S., or at least equal parts favorable and unfavorable, are an interesting mix. China’s take is unsurprising: The U.S. is seen as a symbol of prosperity and possibility there, but also of Western imperialism and disrespect toward China. Greece and Lebanon both have strong ties to Greek-American and Lebanese-American communities, which helps build positive attitudes, but also tend to condemn U.S. foreign policy. The big surprise here is Germany, which breaks from the positive view of America common across Europe, even in Russia. But that could say more about Germans, who seem to have a dim view of nearly every country on Earth.

    Who loves and hates America: A revealing map of global opinion toward the U.S.
    Wow, and from the WaPo too....heh, heh....I love it when liberal meme's are blown....
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Nope....Not even close...Maybe a bit of projection going on with you here....
    I don't project ****.



    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Wow, and from the WaPo too....heh, heh....I love it when liberal meme's are blown....
    What's the margin of error? And 6 countries from that poll are 50% plus favorable.. rest are below 50% favorable.. so you proved what? That 6 countries out of 26 countries polled likes America. Not great odds. Hence the word most.

    Btw, I am not liberal. I just tend to travel alot in my line of work and I catch less **** on my Irish passport then I do on my US passport. Wonder why that is?
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Just because you and he both think so doesn't make it true. What do you not understand about that?

    Remember when you (wisely) admitted that you didn't know as much about constitutional law as a federal judge? They don't think there was a violation, so why are you so insistent that you're right and they're wrong? You admitted you don't know as much as they do.



    lol JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK SOMETHING IS A CRIME DOESN'T MAKE IT SO

    God, the simplest of concepts, you folks cannot understand.



    I'm just a guy. I know you see yourself in a great Manichaeist battle of good and evil and all that. I don't. We're all just guys and girls. You think I'm a bad one? I don't care, I'm don't think I'm good or bad at all. But you, seeking to call people 'patriots' and 'heroes' like it's 1956...that's funny.
    English is my primary language, though I can get by in Spanish and am somewhat familiar with German.

    Thus, I have no problem understanding the language of the Constitution and the Fourth Amendment. I've read enough good books about the Constitution and its underlying legal principles that I understand what it means.

    Really, it's not difficult. My guess is that you understand it as well as I do, but you buy into the nonsense of the GWOT and men in black robes telling you what words mean.

    Independent thinking--it's most refreshing.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Then you'd think he could travel almost anywhere. Why Russia and Cuba?
    Because many other countries have extradition agreements with the US.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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