Page 66 of 76 FirstFirst ... 16566465666768 ... LastLast
Results 651 to 660 of 760

Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

  1. #651
    Sage
    OldWorldOrder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Last Seen
    10-12-15 @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    5,820

    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    That is, recognizing that that elements of the Fourth Amendment were violated on a systematic basis by the government, he revealed that violation.
    Just because you and he both think so doesn't make it true. What do you not understand about that?

    Remember when you (wisely) admitted that you didn't know as much about constitutional law as a federal judge? They don't think there was a violation, so why are you so insistent that you're right and they're wrong? You admitted you don't know as much as they do.

    Snowden exposed government crimes, that make him a hero and a patriot.
    lol JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK SOMETHING IS A CRIME DOESN'T MAKE IT SO

    God, the simplest of concepts, you folks cannot understand.

    Comparatively, you support the criminal actions of the government. What does that make you?
    I'm just a guy. I know you see yourself in a great Manichaeist battle of good and evil and all that. I don't. We're all just guys and girls. You think I'm a bad one? I don't care, I'm don't think I'm good or bad at all. But you, seeking to call people 'patriots' and 'heroes' like it's 1956...that's funny.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  2. #652
    Sage
    OldWorldOrder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Last Seen
    10-12-15 @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    5,820

    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    He didn't win the case, it was lowered to a misdemeanor offense and he pleaded.

    Had to plead guilty for exposing waste. Yeah man, that's justice in the OWO.
    Learn about one of your folk heroes, dude. All charges were dropped in mid 2011. Google is your friend.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  3. #653
    Sage
    OldWorldOrder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Last Seen
    10-12-15 @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    5,820

    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Where else could he travel? The whole world hates the US govt.
    Then you'd think he could travel almost anywhere. Why Russia and Cuba?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  4. #654
    Sage
    j-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 03:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    30,272

    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Where else could he travel? The whole world hates the US govt.
    Where could he travel? Washington DC, straight to the oversight committee.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  5. #655
    Renaissance Man
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    8,535
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So, does that mean that we should now proceed with the attitude that the ends justify the means?
    I find the fact that all you people think there is actually an internal method of divulging this type of information. You act as if the people in charge and those under them were unaware that what they were doing was wrong. What exactly did you expect would happen had he tried to work "within the system?" Perhaps a posting to Toule Greenland? Maybe Bumf@k Egypt? I hate to disappoint you but sometimes the ends DO justify the means, when there really are no other means available.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    No, of course not. You and your team have my deepest admiration, and thanks. But, I do see that as a bit of a false analogy. Snowden had the opportunity to go through channels and bring light to this without running to our global foes...When the founders made the statement upon the start of their defiance of the crown, that they "must hang together, for they will surely hang apart." They didn't run to China.
    I've just addressed the issue of "working through channels" above. I did not make a false analogy. The analogy demonstrated that when you are weaker than your opponent you do not attack him at his strengths, you hit him where he is weakest. In the case of the Federal government, it is weakest when it has to deal with the news media. So you don't hit it internally where it is strongest, and where it can silence you without anyone being aware. No, you make it a public issue. As for your "founding fathers" reference, note the word "WE," not "I" individually. There is strength in numbers, and Snowden sought numbers in the best forum possible, the public eye. Being smart though, he had an exit strategy, and I applaud his planning.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What are your credentials to make the assumption as to whether or not the revelations impact were 'minimal' as you say?
    My credentials? The same as yours, an informed American citizen who has been following the skip-start responses of the various Federal agencies who keep mis-quoting, and mistaking reports of "successful counter-terrorism actions due to the use of domestic surveillance." They are stumbling over themselves trying to show "it's okay folks we've been doing something right." It's like watching Keystone Cops.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I can agree about giving up freedom for security, however, it is NOT "regardless of how we are informed".... As a lawyer you should be among the first in our society upholding the rule of law that separates us from uncivil savages. Unless you espouse anarchy, we need to have a clear protected procedure to allow whistle blowers to reveal what they feel is in violation to the proper oversight, without just endorsing chaos.
    I do uphold the "rule of law" as long as the law adheres to, and does not violate, constitutional provisions protecting our rights. I do not BLINDLY follow the law simply for the law's sake. And where a law is patently Un-Constitutional, it is my duty as a lawyer to oppose it.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, you can certainly call me ignorant if you wish, I'll take that for what it is worth. But, I don't want a society where people just run off in every direction half cocked because they think it is the right thing to do. It may have been, but it strikes me as the same kind of anarchy based action as Wiki leaks, and Manning. I don't support that, I at this time just can't support that.
    I re-read my post and see nowhere in the quoted section (or anywhere else for that matter) any reference naming you an idiot. Please do not put words into my mouth. What I will say is that I am totally unconcerned about foreign propaganda, it's not like our past arrogance in the world theater has made us many friends. I wil also state that when our government acts outside the remit of it's Constitutional authority, it is deserving of more than just hisses from foreign powers, it deserves our utter disgust and to be taken to task to insure it corrects its faults as quickly as possible.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 06-25-13 at 06:28 PM.

  6. #656
    Sage
    j-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 03:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    30,272

    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I find the fact that all you people think there is actually an internal method of divulging this type of information. You act as if the people in charge and those under them were unaware that what they were doing was wrong. What exactly did you expect would happen had he tried to work "within the system?" Perhaps a posting to Toule Greenland? Maybe Bumf@k Egypt? I hate to disappoint you but sometimes the ends DO justify the means, when there really are no other means available.
    Where did I say that there was some internal method?...Wait, actually there is....It is supposed to be the IG first, then the applicable oversight members of congress.

    I've just addressed the issue of "working through channels" above. I did not make a false analogy. The analogy demonstrated that when you are weaker than your opponent you do not attack him at his strengths, you hit him where he is weakest. In the case of the Federal government, it is weakest when it has to deal with the news media. So you don't hit it internally where it is strongest, and where it can silence you without anyone being aware. No, you make it a public issue. As for your "founding fathers" reference, note the word "WE," not "I" individually. There is strength in numbers, and Snowden sought numbers in the best forum possible, the public eye. Being smart though, he had an exit strategy, and I applaud his planning.
    So, you are for anarchy then. Got it.

    My credentials? The same as yours, an informed American citizen who has been following the skip-start responses of the various Federal agencies who keep mis-quoting, and mistaking reports of "successful counter-terrorism actions due to the use of domestic surveillance." They are stumbling over themselves trying to show "it's okay folks we've been doing something right." It's like watching Keystone Cops.
    Ok, so the authoritarian statement you made about the impact being "minimal" was your opinion...I don't share that opinion...I am saying we don't yet know what the impact will be, largely because it isn't yet clear what this jack ass has....

    I do uphold the "rule of law" as long as the law adheres to, and does not violate, constitutional provisions protecting our rights. I do not BLINDLY follow the law simply for the law's sake. And where a law is patently Un-Constitutional, it is my duty as a lawyer to oppose it.
    You can oppose all you want, but as an officer of the court you'd better damned well uphold the law as written until it is no longer the law....You don't get to unilaterally choose what to follow, or not.

    I re-read my post and see nowhere in the quoted section (or anywhere else for that matter) any reference naming you an idiot. Please do not put words into my mouth.
    Ok so you didn't post this?:

    An astounding example of Orwellian double-speak..."Freedom is Slavery, War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength!"

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1061971048
    Now who were you addressing? And why would you highlight, and underline the part you did, if you didn't have a subtle dual meaning for posting it? (btw, not too clever)

    What I will say is that I am totally unconcerned about foreign propaganda, it's not like our past arrogance in the world theater has made us many friends. I wil also state that when our government acts outside the remit of it's Constitutional authority, it is deserving of more than just hisses from foreign powers, it deserves our utter disgust and to be taken to task to insure it corrects its faults as quickly as possible.
    It does deserve our contempt, and disgust, but your seeming selective outrage at what has happened in the past, yet applaud a coward, and traitor as some sort of hero because he has damaged our country from the waiting arms of this country's foes is what I personally find deserving of contempt sir...We shall not agree on this, so I don't see the point of going further.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  7. #657
    Renaissance Man
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    8,535
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Where did I say that there was some internal method?...Wait, actually there is....It is supposed to be the IG first, then the applicable oversight members of congress.
    Very funny, you mean those "applicable oversight members of Congress" who have been saying (erroneously according to follow-up reports) they were aware and kept up to date on the surveillance and support it? Those members?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So, you are for anarchy then. Got it.
    Oh please, this is neither true nor a valid attempt to actually address the response. You are better than this.


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, so the authoritarian statement you made about the impact being "minimal" was your opinion...I don't share that opinion...I am saying we don't yet know what the impact will be, largely because it isn't yet clear what this jack ass has.....
    Of course it was my opinion, based on reports of government responses to date. But truth to tell I am unconcerned with any actual "successes" that may eventualy come to light. That's because I have never feared the actions of terrorists; I am more afraid of our government's responses to the fear of terrorism and how they have eroded our Liberties. In my view nothing justifies wholesale domestic spying on American citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You can oppose all you want, but as an officer of the court you'd better damned well uphold the law as written until it is no longer the law....You don't get to unilaterally choose what to follow, or not.
    In this I wholeheartedly agree with you. I was typing with passion and was afraid I would time out and lose all my efforts when I posted it. It was only later when I re-read it that I realized I needed to qualify what I meant to say, but by then my editing period had timed out. My apologies for letting my passion overcome my thought processes. What I meant to say was that it is my duty to oppose it by working within the legal system to get it changed. Unlike "super-secret double probation" orgnizations like the NSA, the legal system has effective methods of correcting itself where necessary (although they can be time-consuming and lengthy processes). In any case I appreciate your bringing it to my attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok so you didn't post this?: "An astounding example of Orwellian double-speak..."Freedom is Slavery, War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength!" Now who were you addressing? And why would you highlight, and underline the part you did, if you didn't have a subtle dual meaning for posting it? (btw, not too clever)
    Yes I did post it. I assumed you had read and understood the slogan from Orwell's 1984. The official slogan of the Ruling Party, with "Ignorance is Strength" refering to the inability of people to recognize the contradictions in the Party's ideology. I emphasized the slogan because you seemed to be making a very contradictory statement, being more concerned with the effect of creating propaganda value than you were the actual government misconduct that allows it's usage in propaganda efforts. I apologize for the misunderstanding, I was not implying YOU were ignorant.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It does deserve our contempt, and disgust, but your seeming selective outrage at what has happened in the past, yet applaud a coward, and traitor as some sort of hero because he has damaged our country from the waiting arms of this country's foes is what I personally find deserving of contempt sir...We shall not agree on this, so I don't see the point of going further.
    See now YOU are merely expressing an opinion, one obviously NOT SHARED by most of your fellow Americans (from all polls and reports that I have been exposed to anyway). I do not think he is either a coward or a traitor. I think him a man who obtained information of a sensitive nature that showed his government was secretly spying on it's own citizens in violation of the U.S. Constitution. I think him a man who considered his options, and decided his best bet was to provide the information to the news media after he made his escape from the clutches of a vengeful government. I think him a man who faced the reality of his situation and made a rational and understandable decision. I respect him for his actions, and understand and support his decision to flee.

  8. #658
    economically ☭ socially ☭

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:40 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,148

    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Clearly you appeared to need help understanding the difference between literal use, and not. But I am glad that you proceeded past the 1st grade, you must be proud.



    Why yes, I do know how language works...What would like help with?



    To a brainwashed "Socialist", I can see how you think so....Let's talk later in life when you move out of mom's basement.



    Poor attempt to derail...Please stick to the topic.



    Wow, talk about a right that is completely made up by man..... Anyway, stick to the subject.
    Uh, you were the first one to get off topic pointing out my political stance

    And I'm really not looking to argue with someone who's such a ****baby about political stances

  9. #659
    economically ☭ socially ☭

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:40 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,148

    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Not always, but frequently, poor use of the English language often suggest that the poor user might be a moron.
    Suggests*

    Oops.

  10. #660
    Renaissance Man
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    8,535
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Is that in that Constitution somewhere that you're so loudly trumpeting? Where does it say that? Please cite. Make positively sure that it can't be interpreted any other way, unless you're prepared for me to laugh at you for suggesting that your interpretation is the only correct one. So no, there's no right, and no, these actions aren't shown to be unconstitutional. But thanks.
    As promised I will respond to the new issue you raised about the foundation for my statement that warrants need to be narrowly focused on each individual in order to comply with due process. I feel I have answered (or rejected the need to answer) to my satisfaction at least, all of the rest of your other points.

    I will point out the fact that (most of) the issues actually arise as the result of massive use of National Security Letters, not warrants. I nevertheless think it remains an issue of Fourth Amendment privacy protection. So an examination of the issues that led to the inclusion of the Fourth Amendment into the Bill of Rights should help explain my position.

    Unlike citizens residing in England, American colonists were subject to a general warrant issued to the agents of the King known as a Writ of Assistance. Such writs were permanent, not expiring until six months after the death of the King under whom they were issued. The writs were transferable; i.e. the holder of a writ could assign (sell or give) it to another. Any place could be searched at the whim of the holder, and searchers were not responsible for any damage they caused. Any property suspected by the holder of the writ to be “smuggled goods” could be seized and taken away.

    On February 3, 1761 James Otis, a Massachusetts lawyer, argued the case against the use of such general writs before the Superior Court of (the colony of) Massachusetts. He based his case on English common law (law established through a history of prior judicial decisions). Although he lost the case, his 5 hour oration was witnessed by John Adams, who later referred to it as “the spark that ignited the Revolution.”

    Otis’s example stoked the flames of colonial anger against such general writs to a point where many colonial legislatures passed rules limiting their issuance. His speech was a foundational element in the 1776 Virginia Declaration of Rights that stated “That general warrants, whereby any officer or messenger may be commanded to search suspected places without evidence of a fact committed, or to seize any person or persons not named, or whose offense is not particularly described and supported by evidence, are grievous and oppressive and ought not to be granted.”

    It also influenced John Adams when he authored Article XIV of the Massachusetts Declaration of Rights, later enacted into the Massachusetts Constitution in 1780. "Every subject has a right to be secure from all unreasonable searches, and seizures of his person, his houses, his papers, and all his possessions. All warrants, therefore, are contrary to this right, if the cause or foundation of them be not previously supported by oath or affirmation; and if the order in the warrant to a civil officer, to make search in suspected places, or to arrest one or more suspected persons, or to seize their property, be not accompanied with a special designation of the persons or objects of search, arrest, or seizure: and no warrant ought to be issued but in cases, and with the formalities, prescribed by the laws.”

    This history led to the specific inclusion of the Fourth Amendment to the Bill of Rights. Notice the similarities in language? “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

    Now you would have us believe that a document purporting to be a subpoena but which acts like a “general warrant,” issued based only upon a vague assumption that among ALL files and records of the calls and internet activities of ALL citizens held by any and all internet and telephone companies with business offices in America, there must be some evidence of a connection to terrorist activity and demanding they be turned over, does not circumvent our Fourth Amendment rights?

    It’s like saying that any Federal agency can claim that since it is probable evidence exists somewhere in someone’s house relating to terrorist activities, then here’s a letter notifying you to expect our visit, so please gather up ALL of your records and be prepared to hand them over to us. Where is the probable cause? Where is the specific description of the place to be searched or the things to be seized? Where is the protection from invasion of your expectation of privacy?
    Does that help?
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 06-26-13 at 05:33 AM.

Page 66 of 76 FirstFirst ... 16566465666768 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •