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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    It seems overall, J-Mac, that we share the same uncertainty in a couple of areas.. I don't have the confidence in the American government and bureaucracy that I once had but still have, despite the lest election, confidence in the American people.

    Maybe Snowden is a patriot, maybe he is a traitor. I don't know. I share the same uncertainty about Snowden as I have with the US Government and the faceless bureaucracy which has become answerable, apparently, to no one.

    It seems there is a need for more whistle-blowers in every bureaucracy though the government of the day always reacts in a similar fashion, and sometimes rightly so. Is this guy creating the promised 'transparency' or giving away secrets of the State, or just exposing some self serving politicians? I think I'll reserve judgement.
    Apologies for the sloppy post as i was on my way out the door. Hope it makes some sense..

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I am going to address this from two positions, one as a lawyer and the other as an ex-SOF team leader. As a lawyer I agree, we do live under a rule of law but the balance of power in our criminal justice system, and especially so in Federal court lies with the government. As I tried to explain in another thread regarding this issue, had Snowden remained to face the music he would have had his day in court and then gone right to prison. He would not stand a chance aside from the extremely iffy possibility of jury nullification.
    So, does that mean that we should now proceed with the attitude that the ends justify the means?

    Next, having been a Team Leader of an SOF mountain team, I can tell you that hit and run is a common tactic in guerilla warfare when dealing with a numerically more powerful enemy. So based on your comment, are you saying that our tactics of hit and "run like a little bitch" rather than waiting around to be caught by the overwhelming forces of the enemy made my men and I cowards and traitors? If not, why hold a common citizen with absolutely NO power or chance of success against the overwhelming might of the Federal government any less of a patriot because he "hit and ran?"
    No, of course not. You and your team have my deepest admiration, and thanks. But, I do see that as a bit of a false analogy. Snowden had the opportunity to go through channels and bring light to this without running to our global foes...When the founders made the statement upon the start of their defiance of the crown, that they "must hang together, for they will surely hang apart." They didn't run to China.

    I agree that the revelation of military secrets such as troop movements would be harmful to our combat mission and would not qualify as something the general public would have any need to know. But what Snowden did is NOT the same thing. He revealed government violations of our Constitutional rights. Any "harm" to our mission in this "war on terror" was minimal and irrelevant in light of the nature and depth of these violations.
    What are your credentials to make the assumption as to whether or not the revelations impact were 'minimal' as you say?

    The biggest problem I have always had with this "War on Terror" is the subjugation of our Constitutional rights to the needs of "security." Overblowing fears of possible terrorist attacks not only turned our shining example of democracy into a locked-down nation of frightened sheeple, it increased both the status and political power of terror groups in their own nations. We NEED to know when our government is over-stepping it's Constitutional bounds, regardless of how we are informed.
    I can agree about giving up freedom for security, however, it is NOT "regardless of how we are informed".... As a lawyer you should be among the first in our society upholding the rule of law that separates us from uncivil savages. Unless you espouse anarchy, we need to have a clear protected procedure to allow whistle blowers to reveal what they feel is in violation to the proper oversight, without just endorsing chaos.

    Had our government been operating in a forthright and Constitutional manner, there would be no ammunition to provide this "propaganda" for any rival foreign power. The funny thing is you seem to care more about this "propaganda value" than you do that our own governments malfeasance was the cause of it. So because our government screwed up and violated our Constitutional rights, and a citizen made it public which as an unfortunate side effect allowed rivals to point fingers at us, this make the act nothing but treason in your eyes? An astounding example of Orwellian double-speak..."Freedom is Slavery, War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength!"
    Well, you can certainly call me ignorant if you wish, I'll take that for what it is worth. But, I don't want a society where people just run off in every direction half cocked because they think it is the right thing to do. It may have been, but it strikes me as the same kind of anarchy based action as Wiki leaks, and Manning. I don't support that, I at this time just can't support that.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Snowden had the opportunity to go through channels and bring light to this without running to our global foes
    And where are your links to unbiased, factual proof that had he gone through 'channels' that his information would have definitely come to 'light'?

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    And where are your links to unbiased, factual proof that had he gone through 'channels' that his information would have definitely come to 'light'?
    What are you talking about? We see where people like those that blew the whistle on situations like Benghazi are not in jail...Now if you want to say that we need stronger protections for those who do blow the whistle, to entice them to report to proper channels, then I am with you. But, try not to play the disingenuous game that I made some statement of fact that must be backed up by a source that you need to agree with, it's stupid.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Let me stop you right here, because I do NOT AGREE with this premise. Neither of us know what Snowden's basic ideological position is, and whatever it is it would not necessarily be relevant to that fact he found our that his government was secretly spying on both him and his fellow countrymen.
    So not only did you avoid answering whether a hero needed to be righteous, but now you're also saying a hero's ideology is unimportant? Okay. I was only talking hypothetically.

    He is an American citizen, not (at least as of yet) a citizen of either a fascist or communist regime. I'm an American citizen, and as far as I am concerned let the rest of the world be damned! Each country is responsible for making it's own way in this world. I don't advocate or support the idea that the USA is, or should be, the World's Policeman. As for Point #2, it is irrelevant.
    Point #2 isn't irrelevant. It's very relevant. But okay, so you don't give a **** about the rest of the world. Okay. Maybe Snowden doesn't, either. How high-minded of him.

    Wait! Are you not an American citizen? Are you at all aware of our history, of the Declaration of Independence? The Bill of Rights, which was added to the Constitution to make sure our government could never tred on hard-won basic liberties? Apparently not, because you are posing false dilemmas and asking questions that anyone with any understanding of these things would already know the answers to.
    Ah, so rule of law is umimportant. Is it just important to be as 'Murican as however an individual interprets it be? Whatever anyone thinks is 'being American' is the best thing? lol are you serious?

    Basically, even though our Congress is empowered to enact laws, they are still bound to abide by the restrictions within the Bill of Rights. The may not enact laws that infringe on these basic rights. One of them is the Fourth Amendment right to privacy,
    No, it's not. As a lawyer, you should know that. It's not a 'right to privacy'.

    which cannot be infringed without "due process." Due process is defined as Court-ordered
    Due process was followed.

    and must be on a case by case (individual) basis only, not a "blanket permission" from a "secret court."
    Is that in that Constitution somewhere that you're so loudly trumpeting? Where does it say that? Please cite. Make positively sure that it can't be interpreted any other way, unless you're prepared for me to laugh at you for suggesting that your interpretation is the only correct one.

    These acts of "secret surveillance" violate that basic right. It does not matter if Congress says it's legal and the Executive Branch says we "need" it...the actions are Un-Constitutional.
    So no, there's no right, and no, these actions aren't shown to be unconstitutional. But thanks.

    Well I was an army officer with a Top Secret clearance. I was exposed to a number of military secrets during my tenure in the U.S. Army. I agree that some secrets which directly affect the defense of this nation need to be protected. However, I limit them to war plans, technological plans and specifications, transit of personnel, weapons diagrams/manuals/and studies, lists of espionage agents and their whereabouts, and things of that nature.
    Oh, you limit them. Well, ya know, the professionals disagree. But I guess we should just go by what you think it should be cause...

    On the other hand I am also familiar with the fact our government has a penchant for labeling things "secret" just because it would be embarrassing if the public found out. Worse, to hide things like this secret wholesale domestic surveillance, that our government KNOWS violate its remit and treads on American liberties. THESE THINGS NEED TO COME OUT! Regardless of how.
    lol

    Now I am not even going to address your persistent efforts to make the Ellsburg case your example of "what a true hero should do." You are simply unable to comprehend how ridiculous your arguments are, or recognize FACTS that undercut them. You do not understand how the criminal justice system works, PERIOD! Nothing you have been saying regarding that case is either rational or relevant despite the fact you keep repeating it over and over. It's like people who think shouting the same thing louder and longer somehow wins an argument. Yes he was a hero, but NO, he did not "win" the case because it was a "cause celebre."
    Really? You're going to tell me that I don't know how things work, but you're going to tell intelligence and security professionals what they need to be doing? Not even a hint of irony there? But we'll get back to your point about cause celebre, cause you clearly didn't get it. Here we go:

    I have been "ignoring your point about Jim Crow" because THERE IS NO POINT. It is simply is not relevant. I don't even think YOU understand why you keep bringing it up.
    It is relevant. You're in no position to judge, frankly, based upon your posts. Your position is that public opinion isn't changing court proceedings. I bring up Jim Crow because we all know that public opinion unequivocally did sway juries in the Jim Crow south, thus disproving your assertion. Your response? "IRRELEVANT!" No, it's relevant, sorry.

    I'm sorry to be so harsh but it's just mind-numbing how you keep ignoring the facts and keep throwing up the same tired old arguments. I'm not going to toss in the towel, but unless you provide something new in the way of an argument I don't think there is much more I can say in response.
    You didn't defeat the first argument, so you're just thrashing around. You don't like the PRISM program. Great. Got it. No one cares. The government that you voted to represent you likes it. That's all. Vote them out, that's all you can do. But guess what? Those people you vote in, when they realize that they're in charge of the security of a nation? They're gonna do the same thing. So would you.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What are you talking about? We see where people like those that blew the whistle on situations like Benghazi are not in jail...Now if you want to say that we need stronger protections for those who do blow the whistle, to entice them to report to proper channels, then I am with you. But, try not to play the disingenuous game that I made some statement of fact that must be backed up by a source that you need to agree with, it's stupid.
    So the answer is, you have got none.


    Then your statement:

    'Snowden had the opportunity to go through channels and bring light to this without running to our global foes'

    ...means nothing as you offer zero unbiased, factual evidence that he could actually do this...despite phrasing your statement in a matter-of-fact manner.


    Which means you cannot prove that the way Snowden released his information was not in fact the only way to bring this information to 'light'.



    Have a nice day.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Probably Snowden is smart enough to be familiar with how the NSA and the US government treated his fellow NSA employee Thomas Drake, eh?

    Drake played by the rules, stayed in the chain of command, and was promptly crushed by the federal government, by way of indictment.
    He was indicted for talking to a journalist and won the case. What do you want? lol You don't even want accusations of treason and espionage to be investigated and tried? hahahahahaha
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    So the answer is you have got none.

    Then your statement:

    'Snowden had the opportunity to go through channels and bring light to this without running to our global foes'

    ...means nothing as you offer zero unbiased, factual evidence that he could actually do this...despite phrasing your statement in a matter-of-fact manner.

    Which means you cannot prove that the way Snowden released his information was not in fact the only way to bring this information to 'light'.

    Noted.


    Have a nice day.

    lol, you might want to ask Henry David to tell you about Thomas Drake. You seriously didn't know there were internal channels for that stuff?

    DA60: Why do you talk so much about this topic when it's clear you don't know anything about it?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    He was indicted for talking to a journalist and won the case. What do you want? lol You don't even want accusations of treason and espionage to be investigated and tried? hahahahahaha
    He didn't win the case, it was lowered to a misdemeanor offense and he pleaded.

    Had to plead guilty for exposing waste. Yeah man, that's justice in the OWO.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Snowden had the opportunity to go through channels and bring light to this without running to our global foes
    Where else could he travel? The whole world hates the US govt.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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