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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

  1. #621
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You did take English in school no? I'd like you to pay particular attention to the dictionary's definitions #4, and #7...Which I have bolded for you to follow along easier....You CAN "rape" a piece of paper such as the constitution of the United States. And they are doing exactly that.
    Wow you can quote a dictionary way to use something i learned in 1st grade

    Dictionary definitions aren't as important as how society uses words do you even know how language works

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    But that is what Socialist do. They twist, hide, obfuscate, deflect, and attack freedom.
    and conservative political analysis is useless

    it sounds like 6 year olds whining about government taking freedoms that they thought they had but never existed

    or whining about women getting abortions

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by instagramsci View Post
    Wow you can quote a dictionary way to use something i learned in 1st grade

    Dictionary definitions aren't as important as how society uses words do you even know how language works
    He apparently knows how punctuation works.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    He apparently knows how punctuation works.
    You are quite capable of understanding whatever I type whether I use punctuation or not

    Don't be a moron

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanstantine View Post
    Spying on the international cellphone calls of Americans without probably cause of criminal or terrorist activity violates the 4th Amendment.

    Does this trouble you?
    Are you referring to maintaining copies of telco billing records?
    Zionism is the National Liberation Movement of the Jewish People.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    Is it possible this program has saved lives? Absolutely. And once our technology advances to the point that the NSA actually CAN record and screen the contents of every phone call and email made I am sure even more lives could be saved. But it would still be wrong. Piece by piece by f-ing piece we are ceding our civil liberties in the name of security. Where does it stop? Where do we draw the line? It seems to me that the only thing keeping our government from absolute intrusion is the technology itself. As the technology improves the government WILL encroach more and more. History is proof positive of that.

    So when a public servant (ok, a contractor in this case) throws away his career and possibly risks his very freedom to give the People a wakeup call, it doesn’t make him a traitor.
    Does carrying hard drives full of sources and methods to Moscow make him a traitor?
    Zionism is the National Liberation Movement of the Jewish People.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Furthermore your position confuses me. You seem to advocate “martyrdom” as the only avenue of a “righteous” whistleblower, or that only a group united in righteousness should be allowed to blow whistles about government misconduct.
    I'm not truly advocating, I'm playing the devil's advocate role. I think most people would righteousness is important when it comes to being a hero. Do you agree?

    Anyway, let's walk through it. If Snowden was ideologically driven, he probably wouldn't want to give positive publicity to the nations that he's going to. If he's for transparency, those aren't the places to go. So either he:

    #1- Only believes in transparency for Americans/Westerners, rest of the world be damned. Is that someone you would consider a hero?
    #2- Believes that the whole world should have transparency, but is being pragmatic and knows he can't do anything to change those places. In which case...why not just be pragmatic and affect change from within, if that's what he wanted. Why do you think he chose not to? I would imagine it's because he knew the lawfully elected government of the United States would- lawfully- veto him and say that it's necessary to keep this quiet to maximize its effectiveness. And he just couldn't bear the people who have the burden of the responsibility of protecting citizens of the US overruling one high school drop out. He thought he was bigger and smarter than virtually everyone else. Very heroic. Are you in support of people taking policy decisions like that into their own hands? Like I said, I'm not big on laws anyway, but are you the same way? You don't care if someone takes situations into their own hands as long as you agree with it?

    Personally I am all for transparency in government, however it is presented. In this case a man making public inside information that was not actually “harmful” (unless you buy into the “War on Terror needs every tool in the armory to win” line of B/S) to the workings of our government.
    I'm not for transparency at all. I've dealt with the military and intelligence circles for virtually the entirety of my adult life. I understand what can happen when people get a hold of a little but of information. I've seen people trying to kill Americans get a little bit of info and capitalize on it and be much more effective than if they hadn't had it. I've also seen Americans trying to capture or kill people and the smallest of threads can lead them there. Every piece of information can be exploited. This might be some far off thing that happens to other people to you; it's very real and serious to me. You might say "Well, we shouldn't be anywhere where people would get mad at us to want to attack us anyway". If so, we can ignore how naive I think that is and just cut straight to the point: we're already there and nothing is going to stop it suddenly anyway: giving up LARGE details, when even small ones can hurt, just because some fat Walmart employee's wife in Topeka "wants to know" is not something I'm interested in.

    So no, I'm not for 'transparency in government' when it comes to classified operations.

    And your point on Ellsburg is complete nonsense. The Court was NOT being “lenient in the extreme,” it was acting on the basis of information regarding government misconduct and illegal wire tapping. Had it not been for Watergate and the evidence from that investigation provided to the judge during Ellsburg’s trial he’d probably be just getting released from prison about now with time off for good behavior.
    The break in at the psychologist's office wasn't central to the case in general. In was central to the trial in particular. He could've been retried. But they decided not to. Because of popular opinion. You continue to ignore my point about Jim Crow. Is it because we both know that public opinion can sometimes color a trial? OJ Simpson?

    People believe a lot of erroneous things about our criminal justice system, but the reality is quite different. The only thing I will give you is the long-shot possibility of jury nullification, but if I were his friend (it would be unethical to offer this suggestion as an attorney) I’d be saying “Have a nice life in Iceland, later dude.”
    I'd say have a nice life in North Korea. I'm sure they wouldn't extradite him. Super safe. Weather kinda blows, though.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    So Snowden's in Moscow now...I hope he will be safe from extradition there.
    Good to see he made it to Russia, that champion of human rights.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I'm not truly advocating, I'm playing the devil's advocate role. I think most people would righteousness is important when it comes to being a hero. Do you agree?

    Anyway, let's walk through it. If Snowden was ideologically driven, he probably wouldn't want to give positive publicity to the nations that he's going to. If he's for transparency, those aren't the places to go.
    Let me stop you right here, because I do NOT AGREE with this premise. Neither of us know what Snowden's basic ideological position is, and whatever it is it would not necessarily be relevant to that fact he found our that his government was secretly spying on both him and his fellow countrymen.


    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So either he:

    #1- Only believes in transparency for Americans/Westerners, rest of the world be damned. Is that someone you would consider a hero?
    #2- Believes that the whole world should have transparency, but is being pragmatic and knows he can't do anything to change those places.
    He is an American citizen, not (at least as of yet) a citizen of either a fascist or communist regime. I'm an American citizen, and as far as I am concerned let the rest of the world be damned! Each country is responsible for making it's own way in this world. I don't advocate or support the idea that the USA is, or should be, the World's Policeman. As for Point #2, it is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    In which case...why not just be pragmatic and affect change from within, if that's what he wanted. Why do you think he chose not to? I would imagine it's because he knew the lawfully elected government of the United States would- lawfully- veto him and say that it's necessary to keep this quiet to maximize its effectiveness. And he just couldn't bear the people who have the burden of the responsibility of protecting citizens of the US overruling one high school drop out. He thought he was bigger and smarter than virtually everyone else. Very heroic. Are you in support of people taking policy decisions like that into their own hands? Like I said, I'm not big on laws anyway, but are you the same way? You don't care if someone takes situations into their own hands as long as you agree with it?
    Wait! Are you not an American citizen? Are you at all aware of our history, of the Declaration of Independence? The Bill of Rights, which was added to the Constitution to make sure our government could never tred on hard-won basic liberties? Apparently not, because you are posing false dilemmas and asking questions that anyone with any understanding of these things would already know the answers to.

    Basically, even though our Congress is empowered to enact laws, they are still bound to abide by the restrictions within the Bill of Rights. The may not enact laws that infringe on these basic rights. One of them is the Fourth Amendment right to privacy, which cannot be infringed without "due process." Due process is defined as Court-ordered and must be on a case by case (individual) basis only, not a "blanket permission" from a "secret court." These acts of "secret surveillance" violate that basic right. It does not matter if Congress says it's legal and the Executive Branch says we "need" it...the actions are Un-Constitutional.


    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I'm not for transparency at all. I've dealt with the military and intelligence circles for virtually the entirety of my adult life. I understand what can happen when people get a hold of a little but of information. I've seen people trying to kill Americans get a little bit of info and capitalize on it and be much more effective than if they hadn't had it. I've also seen Americans trying to capture or kill people and the smallest of threads can lead them there. Every piece of information can be exploited. This might be some far off thing that happens to other people to you; it's very real and serious to me. You might say "Well, we shouldn't be anywhere where people would get mad at us to want to attack us anyway". If so, we can ignore how naive I think that is and just cut straight to the point: we're already there and nothing is going to stop it suddenly anyway: giving up LARGE details, when even small ones can hurt, just because some fat Walmart employee's wife in Topeka "wants to know" is not something I'm interested in.
    Well I was an army officer with a Top Secret clearance. I was exposed to a number of military secrets during my tenure in the U.S. Army. I agree that some secrets which directly affect the defense of this nation need to be protected. However, I limit them to war plans, technological plans and specifications, transit of personnel, weapons diagrams/manuals/and studies, lists of espionage agents and their whereabouts, and things of that nature.

    On the other hand I am also familiar with the fact our government has a penchant for labeling things "secret" just because it would be embarrassing if the public found out. Worse, to hide things like this secret wholesale domestic surveillance, that our government KNOWS violate its remit and treads on American liberties. THESE THINGS NEED TO COME OUT! Regardless of how.

    Now I am not even going to address your persistent efforts to make the Ellsburg case your example of "what a true hero should do." You are simply unable to comprehend how ridiculous your arguments are, or recognize FACTS that undercut them. You do not understand how the criminal justice system works, PERIOD! Nothing you have been saying regarding that case is either rational or relevant despite the fact you keep repeating it over and over. It's like people who think shouting the same thing louder and longer somehow wins an argument. Yes he was a hero, but NO, he did not "win" the case because it was a "cause celebre."

    I have been "ignoring your point about Jim Crow" because THERE IS NO POINT. It is simply is not relevant. I don't even think YOU understand why you keep bringing it up.

    I'm sorry to be so harsh but it's just mind-numbing how you keep ignoring the facts and keep throwing up the same tired old arguments. I'm not going to toss in the towel, but unless you provide something new in the way of an argument I don't think there is much more I can say in response.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by instagramsci View Post
    Wow you can quote a dictionary way to use something i learned in 1st grade

    Clearly you appeared to need help understanding the difference between literal use, and not. But I am glad that you proceeded past the 1st grade, you must be proud.

    Dictionary definitions aren't as important as how society uses words do you even know how language works
    Why yes, I do know how language works...What would like help with?

    and conservative political analysis is useless
    To a brainwashed "Socialist", I can see how you think so....Let's talk later in life when you move out of mom's basement.

    it sounds like 6 year olds whining about government taking freedoms that they thought they had but never existed
    Poor attempt to derail...Please stick to the topic.

    or whining about women getting abortions
    Wow, talk about a right that is completely made up by man..... Anyway, stick to the subject.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Snowden?

    Is he a hero? Is what he's doing heroic?

    (Here's your chance to totally make wrong, but it's gonna take you damning Snowden. Which is more important?)
    At great personal expense, Snowden has come down on the side of the rule of law. That is, recognizing that that elements of the Fourth Amendment were violated on a systematic basis by the government, he revealed that violation. That violation is, of course, a high crime, NOT a misdemeanor.

    Snowden exposed government crimes, that make him a hero and a patriot.

    Comparatively, you support the criminal actions of the government. What does that make you?

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