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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

  1. #601
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    This guy is no whistle blower....He is a traitor....Whistle blowers don't go hide in China, Russia, Cuba...etc...Traitors do.
    They do when they are facing 20 years to life in a Federal penitentiary! What? You think public opinion would save him if he had stayed in the U.S.A. and "proudly" gone to trial in a Federal court? Not hardly. The Federal government has a history of cracking down hard on such activities to set an example preventing similar future acts.

    The law is clear and he broke it. The best he could hope for would be jury nullification in his particular case, and that is a fairly iffy proposition. As for fleeing to places with either no extradition treaty or a history of bucking the U.S.A. when it comes to harboring fugitives, did you expect him to go somewhere that would have shipped him back as soon as the Feds demanded him?

    The fact the he was smart enough to leave American jurisdiction before blowing his whistle does not make him any less a hero, it just makes him an intelligent one.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    They do when they are facing 20 years to life in a Federal penitentiary! What? You think public opinion would save him if he had stayed in the U.S.A. and "proudly" gone to trial in a Federal court? Not hardly. The Federal government has a history of cracking down hard on such activities to set an example preventing similar future acts.

    The law is clear and he broke it. The best he could hope for would be jury nullification in his particular case, and that is a fairly iffy proposition. As for fleeing to places with either no extradition treaty or a history of bucking the U.S.A. when it comes to harboring fugitives, did you expect him to go somewhere that would have shipped him back as soon as the Feds demanded him?

    The fact the he was smart enough to leave American jurisdiction before blowing his whistle does not make him any less a hero, it just makes him an intelligent one.
    I agree completely.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    They do when they are facing 20 years to life in a Federal penitentiary! What? You think public opinion would save him if he had stayed in the U.S.A. and "proudly" gone to trial in a Federal court? Not hardly. The Federal government has a history of cracking down hard on such activities to set an example preventing similar future acts.

    The law is clear and he broke it. The best he could hope for would be jury nullification in his particular case, and that is a fairly iffy proposition. As for fleeing to places with either no extradition treaty or a history of bucking the U.S.A. when it comes to harboring fugitives, did you expect him to go somewhere that would have shipped him back as soon as the Feds demanded him?

    The fact the he was smart enough to leave American jurisdiction before blowing his whistle does not make him any less a hero, it just makes him an intelligent one.
    Right you are!

    And the contrasting case is that of Thomas Drake and a few other former NSA types. They "kept it in the chain of command", trying to do the right thing, and were promptly indicted.

    Keeping it in the chain of command sounds nice to somebody who doesn't know how it works, but it does nothing but bring you more trouble, just like the female military types who try to use the chain of command to report their sexual assaults.

    Snowden did the right thing, for himself and for his country.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    To whom am I 'giving a pass'?
    Snowden?

    Is he a hero? Is what he's doing heroic?

    (Here's your chance to totally make wrong, but it's gonna take you damning Snowden. Which is more important?)
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    The law is clear and he broke it.

    Nuff said right there.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    They do when they are facing 20 years to life in a Federal penitentiary! What? You think public opinion would save him if he had stayed in the U.S.A. and "proudly" gone to trial in a Federal court? Not hardly. The Federal government has a history of cracking down hard on such activities to set an example preventing similar future acts.

    The law is clear and he broke it. The best he could hope for would be jury nullification in his particular case, and that is a fairly iffy proposition. As for fleeing to places with either no extradition treaty or a history of bucking the U.S.A. when it comes to harboring fugitives, did you expect him to go somewhere that would have shipped him back as soon as the Feds demanded him?

    The fact the he was smart enough to leave American jurisdiction before blowing his whistle does not make him any less a hero, it just makes him an intelligent one.
    That would all make sense were Ellsburg in jail. He's not. So you're wrong.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    That would all make sense were Ellsburg in jail. He's not. So you're wrong.
    You might have been right if Ellsburg hadn't been lucky that a President like Nixon was in office.

    After revealing the "Pentagon Papers" Ellsburg and "co-conspirator" Anthony Russo were eventually brought to trial in Los Angeles on January 3, 1973 facing charges under the Espionage Act of 1917 and other charges including theft and conspiracy, carrying a total maximum sentence of 115 years. Their trial was presided over by U.S. District Judge William Matthew Byrne, Jr.

    Prior to this, in 1971, John Erlichman, white house counsel and presidential advisor on Domestic Affairs, authorized G. Gordon Liddy and E. Howard Hunt (the same Plumbers Group responsible for Watergate) to conduct covert operations geared toward discrediting Ellsburg. On September 3, 1971, the plumbers burglarized the offices of Lewis Fielding where Ellsburgs psychiatric records were allegedly maintained, but didn't find them. They then planned to burglarize Fielding's home, but Erlichman nixed the idea.

    Then the Watergate investigation started in 1972, which uncovered numerous documents and tapes, among them Ehrlichman's notes, which labeled this Fielding break-in "Hunt/Liddy Special Project No. 1." On April 26, 1973 Judge Byrne was provided a memo about the Fielding break-in, and later on May 9, 1973 further evidence of FBI wire-tapping against Ellsburg without a court order was provided to the Judge.

    Due to the gross governmental misconduct and illegal evidence gathering, and the defense by Leonard Boudin and Harvard Law School professor Charles Nesson, Judge Byrne dismissed all charges against Ellsberg and Russo on May 11, 1973 after the government claimed it had lost records of wiretapping against Ellsberg. Byrne ruled: "The totality of the circumstances of this case which I have only briefly sketched offend a sense of justice. The bizarre events have incurably infected the prosecution of this case."

    Basically, Ellsburg got very very lucky due to a Presidential scandal which forced a very foolish President and most of his staff out of office.

    That's the difference, and if I were Snowden I wouldn't hope for that lucky a set of circumstances to aid me in court either.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    You might have been right if Ellsburg hadn't been lucky that a President like Nixon was in office.

    After revealing the "Pentagon Papers" Ellsburg and "co-conspirator" Anthony Russo were eventually brought to trial in Los Angeles on January 3, 1973 facing charges under the Espionage Act of 1917 and other charges including theft and conspiracy, carrying a total maximum sentence of 115 years. Their trial was presided over by U.S. District Judge William Matthew Byrne, Jr.

    Prior to this, in 1971, John Erlichman, white house counsel and presidential advisor on Domestic Affairs, authorized G. Gordon Liddy and E. Howard Hunt (the same Plumbers Group responsible for Watergate) to conduct covert operations geared toward discreciting Ellsburg. On September 3, 1971, the plumbers burglarized the offices of Lewis Fielding where Ellsburgs psychiatric records were allegedly maintained, but didn't find them. They then planned to burglarize Fielding's home, but Erlichman nixed the idea.

    Then the Watergate investigation started in 1972, which uncovered numerous documents and tapes, among them Ehrlichman's notes, which labeled this Fielding break-in "Hunt/Liddy Special Project No. 1." On April 26, 1973 Judge Byrne was provided a memo about the Fielding break-in, and later on May 9, 1973 further evidence of FBI wire-tapping against Ellsburg without a court order was provided to the Judge.

    Due to the gross governmental misconduct and illegal evidence gathering, and the defense by Leonard Boudin and Harvard Law School professor Charles Nesson, Judge Byrne dismissed all charges against Ellsberg and Russo on May 11, 1973 after the government claimed it had lost records of wiretapping against Ellsberg. Byrne ruled: "The totality of the circumstances of this case which I have only briefly sketched offend a sense of justice. The bizarre events have incurably infected the prosecution of this case."

    Basically, Ellsburg got very very lucky due to a Presidential scandal which forced a very foolish President and most of his staff out of office.

    That's the difference, and if I were Snowden I wouldn't hope for that lucky a set of circumstances to aid me in court either.
    Ah, so Ellsberg got lucky and Snowden would not have been so lucky. I see. Because cases haven't been retried with larger issues?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Ah, so Ellsberg got lucky and Snowden would not have been so lucky. I see. Because cases haven't been retried with larger issues?
    I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but my point was that had Watergate not been discovered, and the evidence of government misconduct regarding Ellsburg not been available, he would have been found guilty and sentenced to up to 115 years in Federal prison.

    In his case luck prevailed. In Snowden's? Not so likely.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but my point was that had Watergate not been discovered, and the evidence of government misconduct regarding Ellsburg not been available, he would have been found guilty and sentenced to up to 115 years in Federal prison.

    In his case luck prevailed. In Snowden's? Not so likely.
    My point is that the court was lenient (to an extreme) on Ellsberg because his became a cause celebre. There's no reason to think why Snowden's wouldn't have been, either. Considering the 50/50 split on the feelings of the unwashed masses, it seems downright likely.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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