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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Actually 5 Zeta-bytes equates to the memory of 321 Billion I-Phones, and trust me, by your response you don't know much either.

    1 Zetabytes equates to enough I-Phones stacked flat to exceed the distance of the moon.
    lol? Did anyone dispute that?

    (psst, if you wanna sound intelligent, know how to spell the unit of measure)

    So, if your'e not going to be specific then I have to assume your ignorant.

    Problem is ignorance is no excuse for indifference or apathy.
    What? Did you just randomly go on about how large a unit of measure was that you misspelled, which no one had debated, and then call someone ignorant? lol that's awesome.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    lol? Did anyone dispute that?

    (psst, if you wanna sound intelligent, know how to spell the unit of measure)



    What? Did you just randomly go on about how large a unit of measure was that you misspelled, which no one had debated, and then call someone ignorant? lol that's awesome.

    Come on man, are you really going to resort to the 'grammar Nazi' approach to debate?

    Now admittedly, I don't know much about technology, but can you tell me why I should let the government just collect all my data with no intent to use it? Do we have a 4th amendment anymore? Or a constitution for that matter?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Come on man, are you really going to resort to the 'grammar Nazi' approach to debate?
    Uhhh...I just corrected him. He used it twice. The first time I assumed it was a typo, the second time, when he tried to play it as some type of trump card (...why would he even think that?), I thought he should really know. Now it's just kinda silly: "This guy disagrees with me and corrected my spelling!? I'm gonna keep spelling it wrong just to show him!"

    Now admittedly, I don't know much about technology, but can you tell me why I should let the government just collect all my data with no intent to use it? Do we have a 4th amendment anymore? Or a constitution for that matter?
    Well he's not talking about technology. He's just going on and on about some facility being built in Utah, which leads me to believe he has no idea what an NSA RSOC is, which makes me wonder why he's trying to speak intelligently about the subject at all.

    To answer your question, we do have a 4th amendment. And this has been found by federal judges, the people paid to interpret the constitution, to be in accordance with it. If you disagree, that's fine. But what isn't fine is when people (hopefully not you) become convinced that somehow their interpretation is the only correct one and that everyone else is blatantly 'illegal' because they're not in agreement.

    But that's almost beside the point to me. What would you prize higher: upholding the constitution or protecting Americans? Especially keeping in mind that the constitution was created to protect Americans...
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Uhhh...I just corrected him. He used it twice. The first time I assumed it was a typo, the second time, when he tried to play it as some type of trump card (...why would he even think that?), I thought he should really know. Now it's just kinda silly: "This guy disagrees with me and corrected my spelling!? I'm gonna keep spelling it wrong just to show him!"



    Well he's not talking about technology. He's just going on and on about some facility being built in Utah, which leads me to believe he has no idea what an NSA RSOC is, which makes me wonder why he's trying to speak intelligently about the subject at all.

    To answer your question, we do have a 4th amendment. And this has been found by federal judges, the people paid to interpret the constitution, to be in accordance with it. If you disagree, that's fine. But what isn't fine is when people (hopefully not you) become convinced that somehow their interpretation is the only correct one and that everyone else is blatantly 'illegal' because they're not in agreement.

    But that's almost beside the point to me. What would you prize higher: upholding the constitution or protecting Americans? Especially keeping in mind that the constitution was created to protect Americans...
    I'd like to think that I value my freedom more than security promised by a corrupt nanny state. But, we are going to have to see more...It's almost like one of those twilight zone's from my childhood, where an ever increasing security state takes more and more rights in the name of security, and before you know it, it's Germany 1932. Or better yet someone realizes the out of control spiral, and calls a halt, and nothing bad happens.

    Now, I don't know you personally OWO, and for the record you seem like a pretty smart guy even though on a lot of political matters we probably don't agree. But if you can sit there and type that you thought that it was fine when congress instituted the patriot act that caused this during the last administration as well, then I can better understand where you are coming from.

    But, know this, I defended Bush, and the patriot act in the early '00s and as this power is being abused more and more, I have come to realize that I was wrong and admitted it. So, no sir. If the state suspects me of something, let them prove it. They can't, or shouldn't be able to do it with dragnets....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    An odd thing is happening in the world's self-declared pinnacle of democracy. No one -- except a handful of elected officials and an army of contractors -- is allowed to know how America's surveillance leviathan works.

    For the last two years, Senators Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) and Mark Udall (D-Colo.) have tried to describe to the American public the sweeping surveillance the National Security Agency conducts inside and outside the United States. But secrecy rules block them from airing the simplest details.

    Over the last few days, President Barack Obama and Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), the chairwoman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, have both said they welcome a national debate about the surveillance programs. But the president and senator have not used their power to declassify information that would make that debate possible.

    In the initial years after September 11, the focus on thwarting another major domestic terrorist attack was understandable. Twelve years later, there have been only two major al Qaeda-inspired terrorist attacks inside the United States: the 2009 killing of 13 soldiers in Fort Hood, Texas, and the April Boston marathon bombing that killed three. No evidence has emerged of terrorist groups infiltrating American executive, intelligence or defense agencies.

    Yet documents released by Snowden show that the amount of surveillance information that the government collects is ballooning. The American public has no clear sense of how the metadata is used by the government, how long it is held and which agencies have access to it.

    The culture of secrecy that pervades Washington borders on the absurd. The White House refuses to release the legal memo it used it used to justify the killing of an American citizen in a drone strike in Yemen. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) court will not publish summaries of the rulings that made data mining legal.

    From drone strikes to eavesdropping to water boarding, the American public is not allowed to know the rules and results of U.S. counterterrorism policies.

    At the same time, a sprawling secrecy industrial complex does. More than 4.9 million Americans now have government security clearances. Another 1.4 million have "top secret" clearance.

    As always, politics lies beneath the surface. For a Democratic or Republican president, another major terrorist attack in the United States would be politically devastating. Erring on the side of overzealous counterterrorism and under-zealous disclosure is smart politics.

    But as Obama himself argued in a speech two weeks ago, the time has come for the United States to move forward. A "perpetual war," he said, "will prove self-defeating, and alter our country in troubling ways." So will perpetual fear and perpetual secrecy.
    The Security-Industrial Complex - David Rohde - The Atlantic

    4.9 million snoopers, every one of em a potential snowden...

    stay tuned

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    What would you prize higher: upholding the constitution or protecting Americans
    obama: false choice

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    ap yesterday:

    When Lying Is Acceptable, The Public Loses | RealClearPolitics

    WASHINGTON (AP) — A member of Congress asks the director of national intelligence if the National Security Agency collects data on millions of Americans. "No, sir," James Clapper responds. Pressed, he adds a caveat: "Not wittingly."

    Then, NSA programs that do precisely that are disclosed.

    It turns out that President Barack Obama's intelligence chief lied. Or as he put it last week: "I responded in what I thought was the most truthful or least most untruthful manner, by saying, 'No,' because the program was classified."

    The White House stands by him. Press secretary Jay Carney says Obama "certainly believes that Director Clapper has been straight and direct in the answers that he's given." Congress, always adept at performing verbal gymnastics, seems generally unmiffed about Clapper's lack of candor. If there have been repercussions, the public doesn't know about them.

    Welcome to the intelligence community, a shadowy network of secrets and lies reserved, apparently, not only for this country's enemies but also for its own citizens.

    Sometimes it feels as if the government operates in a parallel universe where lying has no consequences and everyone but the people it represents is complicit in deception. Looking at episodes like this, it's unsurprising that people have lost faith in their elected leaders and the institution of government. This all reinforces what polls show people think: Washington plays by its own rules.

    Since when is it acceptable for government — elected leaders or those they appoint — to be directly untruthful to Americans? Do people even care about the deception? Or is this kind of behavior expected these days? After all, most politicians parse words, tell half-truths and omit facts. Some lie outright. It's called spin.

    And yet this feels different.

    The government quite legitimately keeps loads of secrets from its people for security reasons, with gag orders in effect over top-secret information that adversaries could use against us. But does that authority also give the government permission to lie to its people in the name of their own safety without repercussions? Should Congress simply be accepting those falsehoods?

    Consider the results of 2012 surveys.

    One from the Public Affairs Council found that 57 percent of Americans felt that public officials in Washington had below-average honesty and ethical standards. Another from the Pew Research Center found 54 percent of Americans felt the federal government in Washington was mostly corrupt, while 31 percent rated it mostly honest.

    Trust in government has dropped dramatically since the 1950s, when a majority of the country placed faith in it most of the time. But by April 2013, an Associated Press-GfK poll had found just 21 percent feeling that way.
    senator udall: "that is the type of surveillance i have long said would shock the public if they knew about it"

    ron wyden: "the american people have the right to expect straight answers from the intelligence leadership to the questions asked by their representatives"

    clapper: my "least untruthful" answer "may have been too cute by half"

    Whatever else it does, the episode illuminates a conflict in our system — one that we dance around whenever the subject of secrets comes up.

    The Obama administration says it wants the American people to allow the NSA to do what it must to protect the nation. The president himself has assured Americans that Congress has been in the loop, making sure the NSA isn't going too far. But it's hard to see how a real check on that power is possible if Congress is unable or unwilling to provide actual oversight, much less take action when a key official involved in the program isn't straight with lawmakers.

    In this case, it nudges accountability further into the shadows — and gives the American public even less of a stake in the security of the open society that we say we hold so dear.
    secrets, spies and lies...

    do you trust people like this to handle, for example, your tax dollars?

    your health care needs?

    stay tuned

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Uhhh...I just corrected him. He used it twice. The first time I assumed it was a typo, the second time, when he tried to play it as some type of trump card (...why would he even think that?), I thought he should really know. Now it's just kinda silly: "This guy disagrees with me and corrected my spelling!? I'm gonna keep spelling it wrong just to show him!"



    Well he's not talking about technology. He's just going on and on about some facility being built in Utah, which leads me to believe he has no idea what an NSA RSOC is, which makes me wonder why he's trying to speak intelligently about the subject at all.

    To answer your question, we do have a 4th amendment. And this has been found by federal judges, the people paid to interpret the constitution, to be in accordance with it. If you disagree, that's fine. But what isn't fine is when people (hopefully not you) become convinced that somehow their interpretation is the only correct one and that everyone else is blatantly 'illegal' because they're not in agreement.

    But that's almost beside the point to me. What would you prize higher: upholding the constitution or protecting Americans? Especially keeping in mind that the constitution was created to protect Americans...
    Sometimes it's good to have a reminder of what the Founders had to say about all of this, and what they said then usually holds true today.

    They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Ben Franklin.
    Here's more from Ben, if you're interested. Benjamin Franklin - Wikiquote

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Sometimes it's good to have a reminder of what the Founders had to say about all of this, and what they said then usually holds true today.
    Here's more from Ben, if you're interested. Benjamin Franklin - Wikiquote
    I'll never get over how some people consider the founders to be saints that could never be wrong. Regardless, who knew having a storehouse of your phones metadata was essential? Who knew that the threat of non-state actors is only temporary?

    Learn something new every day.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I'd like to think that I value my freedom more than security promised by a corrupt nanny state.
    Freedom and security are on opposite sides of the spectrum, I think you know that. Whether it's corrupt or not is almost besides the point. Is the military corrupt? The NSA falls under the DoD.

    But, we are going to have to see more...It's almost like one of those twilight zone's from my childhood, where an ever increasing security state takes more and more rights in the name of security, and before you know it, it's Germany 1932. Or better yet someone realizes the out of control spiral, and calls a halt, and nothing bad happens.
    I don't think it's 'ever increasing'. For awhile in the 90s, technology far outpaced the government's ability to keep up with it. Now the government is catching up. That's the way it's always been.

    Now, I don't know you personally OWO, and for the record you seem like a pretty smart guy even though on a lot of political matters we probably don't agree. But if you can sit there and type that you thought that it was fine when congress instituted the patriot act that caused this during the last administration as well, then I can better understand where you are coming from.
    I did think it was a good idea. I still do.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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