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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Yeah, and I said I was waiting for more info. And then he started blabbing about other things and I changed my mind, guess you missed that post.
    Yeah, me too. I was careful to say “based just on what I currently know”. While I am still glad he leaked the surveillance info, all the other info he has been releasing has flipped my opinion of him and his motives.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I saw where you said you weren't really positive anymore. That's where I said anyone with half a brain knew the guy was a loser from the beginning.
    Well, that is the thing about jumping to conclusions. Sometimes the conclusions will be right.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    Well, that is the thing about jumping to conclusions. Sometimes the conclusions will be right.
    When someone releases information on a classified program that has been approved by all three branches of government every few months for years now, deciding pretty quickly that he's a moron isn't a terribly difficult conclusion to arrive at. I'm just shocked so many people couldn't do it/
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    When someone releases information on a classified program that has been approved by all three branches of government every few months for years now, deciding pretty quickly that he's a moron isn't a terribly difficult conclusion to arrive at. I'm just shocked so many people couldn't do it/
    One of Snowden's problems at this point now, is that it appears that he is embellishing on some of the info he says he has...At one point in an interview he stated that he could "tap" anyone's phone calls, including, and up the POTUS...all he needed was a phone number....Yeah, right! Me thinks he considers himself more important than he is. Also, he lied about his earnings...probably to also make himself seem more important than he is...He said he makes $200K per year, when his employer was asked, they reported his salary at closer to $115K...Still impressive for a high school drop out, not what he said it was....

    He said, that "HE" made a decision to reveal this info, because "HE" could no longer continue to see this go on, so who the hell is he? Who made him the moral conscience of the country, or the government? Younger people, and anarchists are trying to paint this jack ass as some kind of hero, or whistle blower, I think neither....A true whistle blower, goes to the appropriate authorities like congress and reports what he is seeing. What is he doing? He went to China, and drips, and drabs out what "HE" thinks is important, regardless of what that leaking would do to our greater interests....Without knowing, or caring about the greater ramifications I might add...Snowden is a coward, and a possible traitor.

    But, I will give him this, what Snowden did was to shed light on what the government was doing that I don't think many people had any idea was that broad, or intrusive, and it will start a conversation about what is appropriate to battle terror in this age, so that was a good thing, however, the way he went about it may cause more harm than any possible good to come from it....Then he did it in true cowardice fashion by fleeing, then releasing it.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael66 View Post
    Your objections are fair and honest. However, when terror rained down on Germany or Japan at the end of WW2, I'm willing to bet my shirt that nobody was standing around entertaining your argument. It's really as simple as that to understand but it's not simple to prevent it or change it. And so the movement to change it that we see in it's infancy is encouraging but it even lacks honesty. And that's why I see it coming to naught.

    It's dishonest because it's motivated from the right's perspective as opposing Obama. And of course, the mainstream right will win the day I suspect anyway and the tea party/libertarians will be sidelined. And as for the American left, I don't see any real motivation to call the propagandists on the obvious lies of Assad using chem/bio weapons. I hear them quickly crumbling on that notion and reverting to an argument that Assad has it coming anyway. I don't accept that but I would find it too tedious to argue.
    This and your other posts, as Occam has noted, make it appear that you see things through a prism, no pun intended, of fear. You analyze incidents and events through some sort of fear perception. And that's not really your fault, for that is precisely the goal of the style of propaganda we americans are subjected to.

    This is not Germany or Japan in WWII. This is the US, post 911. This is the US, 11 years after a very public (and staged) event which brutally traumatized the public psyche. Some of us have overcome the trauma, some have not.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    When someone releases information on a classified program that has been approved by all three branches of government every few months for years now, deciding pretty quickly that he's a moron isn't a terribly difficult conclusion to arrive at. I'm just shocked so many people couldn't do it/
    Been approved by all 3 branches, but flies in the face of the Fourth Amendment?

    All that really confirms is that the government assaults the Constitution as it pleases. All that proves is that the rule of law is dead in this country and that Orwell was bloody well prescient.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    The new data facicillity in Utah will be capable of holding up to 5 ZETA-BYTES
    of Data. That's enough storage to collect and hold EVERY CELL PHONE CALL, every Internet post, every chat message, every video, picture, etc in the US and abroad for literally decades.

    Why ? Terroist will simply move to archaic techniques to avoid detection.

    This new facillity is NOT for our protection, that I promise.

    Whats the new I-phone come with in storage memory ? 16 Gigs ?

    A ZETA-BYTE is the capacity of enough I-Phones stacked on one another ( flat ) to equal the distance to the moon. Actually to pass the moon.

    Multiply that by 5 and you have the total capacity at the Utah Complex.

    I forsee a revolt against all hand-held, desk top or tablet devices coming up. If not a complete revolt then a move to a very selective way of using these devices.

    Who knows, it might be their plan, to silence the detractors by scarrimg them into thinking every critical opinion is being recorded.
    Last edited by Fenton; 06-17-13 at 11:04 AM.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    it appears that he is embellishing on some of the info he says he has
    "Meet The Press" Roundtable Reviews NSA Leaks, Intel Gathering Techniques | RealClearPolitics

    andrea mitchell: one of the issues that i have with snowden that's really not resolved is how he had access to that court ruling on verizon, a fisa ruling, he had access to things that were not within his purview, and what he said in his interview with the guardian is that he could access anyone's emails including the president of the united states if he had an email address

    michael hayden (bush cia and nsa): snowden's wrong, he could not possibly have done the things he claimed he was able to do in terms of tapping communications

    mitchell: but general, snowden got into things that you had no idea he was getting into

    hayen: well, i understand, but let...

    mitchell: so how do you know he's wrong

    hayden: well, one more point then, congressman, it's only terrorism, the only word you can access, the metadata, is through a terrorist predicate

    congressman bobby scott (VA): well who... and where is that written?

    hayden: it's in the court order, it's in the broad structure of the data

    scott: but that part, that's how you get the data, and once the fbi has it they have practices, and then we asked the fbi director whether it's only used for terrorism and he said, "yes, only for terrorism," the attorney general gonzalez said, "well, we could use it for criminal investigations"

    hayden: well, the only reason...

    scott: you've got the information

    hayden: now, now...

    james risen (pulitzer prize winner, nyt, recipient and publisher of the jeffrey sterling leak about iranian nukes, sterling being one of the leakers obama's doj is prosecuting): the only reason we've been having these public debates, the only reason these laws have been passed, and that we're now sitting here talking about this is because of a series of whistleblowers, the government has never wanted any of this reported, never wanted any of it disclosed, if it was up to the government over the last ten years this surveillance infrastructure would have grown enormously with no public debate whatsoever, and so every time we talk about how someone is a traitor for disclosing something we have to remember the only reason we're talking about it is because of it

    mitchell: general, one of the things that i think has been written about from both the left and the right, peggy noonan wrote about it this weekend, is that there is a lack of confidence in the government which has evolved over a variety of administrations, so when you say, "trust me, this data, the metadata are stored and we're not going to go into it unless there's a court order, unless it's because of a terrorist plot," and then if a judge orders that, it's then turned over to the fbi and then they can pursue and look at the context, so we've got the numbers, but we're not looking, we're not reading, but people no longer, after benghazi, after the irs certainly, and after a lot of other things, don't have confidence in their government, and that is leading to a disaffection and a disconnection and going forward is very troubling

    risen: i'm sorry, one of the things that really i think concerns people is that you've created something that never existed in american history before and that is a surveillance state, the infrastructure that i'm basically using software technology and data mining and eavesdropping, very sophisticated technology to create an infrastructure that a police state would love, and that's what really should concern americans, is because we haven't had a full national debate about the creation of a massive surveillance state and surveillance infrastructure, that if we had some radical change in our politics could lead to a police state

    david gregory: you know, when we talk about the politics of this, congressman, look at some of the well-known leakers or whistleblowers in our more recent history going back to the pentagon papers and daniel ellsberg and karen silkwood, jeffery wigand at the tobacco industry, bradley manning, julian assange, who in effect as a country do we like and who don't we like in this capacity?

    scott: in this particular, the law on leaking classified information is murky, technically it's not against the law to release classified information if it doesn't do any harm, it is illegal to release information that's sensitive but not even classified if it does do some harm, and so the justice dept has the burden of proving that snowden's release caused some harm

    risen: and i think one of the reasons that's happened and has repeatedly happened throughout the war on terror is that the system, the internal system for whistle-blowing, for the watchdog and oversight system, is broken, there is no good way for anyone inside the government to go through the chain of command and report about something like this, and so most whistleblowers, the only way they now have is to go to the press or to go to someone, go outside like snowden did, he chose people in the press to go to, he picked and chose who he wanted, but the problem is people inside the system who try to go through the chain of command get retaliated against, punished and they eventually learn not to do it anymore

    mitchell: jim, i think they can go to congress, they can go to the intelligence committee, they can go to...

    risen: if you go, if you're not in the intelligence community, if you're a low-ranking person in the intelligence community and you go to the congress, to the senate, or the house, you will be going outside the normal bounds of disclosure

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    When someone releases information on a classified program that has been
    approved by all three branches of government every few months for years now, deciding pretty quickly that he's a moron isn't a terribly difficult conclusion to arrive at. I'm just shocked so many people couldn't do it/
    The morons here are the people who think for a instant that the US Government needs to build a facillity that has the capacity to hold 5 ZETA-BYTES OF DATA.

    The morons are the people who can't come to the obvious and instant conclusion that this has nothing to do with "terroist".

    The morons are the ones who will give up a fraction of their liberty for safety, stupidly thinking they Government has their best interest in mind.

    It's real simple.

    All you have to do is.....the math.

    The new NSA facillity in UTAH. What's a Zeta Byte, and how much information can the US Govt store with 5 of them at their disposal and does capacity equate to the threat of "terrorism" ?

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    obama sat down with pbs' charlie rose yesterday

    President Obama Defends NSA Spying

    "what i've said and what i continue to believe..."

    "that's a false choice..."

    "the same way we make a tradeoff about drunk driving..."

    "i'm going to get to your question..."

    "what i can say unequivocally..."

    "the same way it's always been..."

    "the same way when we were growing up and watching movies..."

    "let me finish, let me finish..."

    "the number of requests are surprisingly small..."

    "some people say, 'well y'know obama was this raving liberal before, now he's y'know dick cheney...'"

    "dick cheney says, 'he took it all, lock, stock and barrel...'"

    "one last point i want to make..."

    "the very fact that there is all this data in bulk, it has the enormous potential for abuse..."

    "all of that is true..."

    "here's what we need to do..."

    "but before i say that, and i know we're running out of time, but i want to make sure i get very clear on this..."

    "because there's been a lot of misinformation out there..."

    "the yahoos and the googles, what have you..."

    "the public may not fully know and that can make the public kind of nervous, right?"

    "what i've asked the intelligence community to do is to see how much of this we can declassify..."

    "because these are classified programs..."

    "it is transparent..."

    "number two, i've stood up a privacy and civil liberties oversight board made up of independent citizens, including some fierce civil libertarians..."

    buzzfeed (formerly newsweek, tina brown) concludes:

    This defense has been widely dismissed:

    "The one thing people should understand about all these programs though is they have disrupted plots, not just here in the United States but overseas as well. And, you know, you’ve got a guy like Najibullah Zazi, who was driving cross country trying to blow up a New York subway system. Now, we might have caught him some other way. We might have disrupted it because a New York cop saw he was suspicious. Maybe he turned out to be incompetent and the bomb didn’t go off. But at the margins we are increasing our chances of preventing a catastrophe like that through these programs. And then the question becomes, “Can we trust all the systems government enough as long as they’re checking each other that our privacy is not being abused, that we are able to prevent some of the tragedies that unfortunately there are people out there who are going to continue to try to — try to strike against us."
    zazi:

    NSA surveillance played little role in foiling terror plots, experts say | World news | guardian.co.uk

    WASHINGTON: NYC bomb plot details settle little in NSA debate - Politics Wires - MiamiHerald.com

    Public Documents Contradict Claim Email Spying Foiled Terror Plot - BuzzFeed

    Senators challenge NSA's claim to have foiled 'dozens' of terror attacks | World news | guardian.co.uk

    transparency:

    US government invokes special privilege to stop scrutiny of data mining | World news | guardian.co.uk

    Justice Department Fights Release of Secret Court Opinion Finding Unconstitutional Surveillance | Mother Jones

    stay tuned

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