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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

  1. #201
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    While we are on the subject of this whistle blower did any one notice what his job description was? He was a intellegence contractor.

    Does it scare anybody that we have now created a business where company's are hired by the government with the purpouse of gathering our private information?
    As a separate issue, yes. This is not a new thought for me. It has long bothered me that we farm out too many things for our national security and defense that I feel we should have direct control over. In the case of intelligence, government. In the case of military weapon systems, 100% designed and manufactured in our own country.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    "Clear government wrongdoing" in this case is subjective. I think that Snowden revealed "clear government wrongdoing." You don't. Therefore, that isn't a solid standard on which to dismiss the real or potential value of Snowden's actions.


    Crime and illegality are not the only indication of problem. Therefore, dismissing criticism of these revelations because "no clear evidence of a crime" exists isn't legitimate. Also, I am one of the "American people." These programs are not my will. I also don't find these programs surprising nor do most of the people who are criticizing them - that's a red herring.


    Right, blame everybody but the people who implemented the programs. How logical.

    Question: Are you American? You sound like a foreigner who has a beef with the United States.
    If Snowden felt that the Government committed crime, then he should have stayed in the US to make his case. Whistle-blowing needs checks and balances. If you're going to break your oath and reveal secret information, then you'd better be prepared to face the consequences. We don't get to pick and choose what's secret and what's not.

    As I said earlier, I don't see the need for the programs because I feel that the threat of terrorism is vastly overblown. But I don't get to approve of someone outing a secret just because it advances my political views.

    I'd think that the phrase "weak willed American People" would refer to Americans who gave the government carte blanche to prosecute the war on terror. IMO it's a better phrase than saying "the majority of the American people" which was true in 2002, 2004, 2006, and marginally so in 2008; but no longer true today. That said, the real benefit of anonymous posting is that your words have to stand on their own. Because anyone can claim to be anything, claims mean next to nothing. You aren't allowed the false sense of security you get from reputation or degrees. I could say I'm from anywhere I wanted, but it doesn't change what I say or how I say it. And considering the question kind of feels like a pejorative, I'll politely decline to answer.
    Last edited by Mithros; 06-10-13 at 01:23 PM.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Legally speaking, he isn't entitled to any whistleblower protections. He did not report any activity that has been declared illegal, and he didn't go up the chain of command. He is almost certainly going to be arrested, deported and tried for espionage.

    Ethically, he may have a case. Legally, he's screwed.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” -Benjamin Franklin
    I concur, this is excessively simplistic. There will always be some tradeoffs between these two needs.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    If Snowden felt that the Government committed crime, then he should have stayed in the US to make his case. Whistle-blowing needs checks and balances. If you're going to break your oath and reveal secret information, then you'd better be prepared to face the consequences.
    Nothing more than opinion. This is an entirely subjective comment which says nothing of the legitimacy of Snowden's actions.

    We don't get to pick and choose what's secret and what's not.
    Apparently, Snowden, the NSA and all the other people involved in this did get to pick and choose so this comment is erroneous.

    As I said earlier, I don't see the need for the programs because I feel that the threat of terrorism is vastly overblown. But I don't get to approve of someone outing a secret just because it advances my political views.
    Who is approving of someone outing a secret just because it advances their political views? You are the first person I've seen say such a thing.

    I'd think that the phrase "weak willed American People" would refer to Americans who gave the government carte blanche to prosecute the war on terror. IMO it's a better phrase than saying "the majority of the American people" which was true in 2002, 2004, 2006, and marginally so in 2008. That said, the real benefit of anonymous posting is that your words have to stand on their own. Because anyone can claim to be anything, claims mean next to nothing. You aren't allowed the false sense of security you get from reputation or degrees. I could say I'm from anywhere I wanted, but it doesn't change what I say or how I say it.
    So again, blame everybody but the actual people who implemented the programs. How logical.

    And considering the question kind of feels like a pejorative, I'll politely decline to answer.
    In other words, "No, I am not American." Funny that you consider the question pejorative after the derogatory manner in which you referred to some Americans. Double standards, I suppose.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    While I sympathize with the sentiment of that quote in this situation, it's too simplistic for me. Everyone is willing to sacrifice some freedom for security. Therefore, the question is not whether or not we are willing to sacrifice freedom for security, but to what degree we are willing to make the sacrifice.

    Mark this day PD....What you say here is spot on...The truth of the matter is that we have a history of sacrificing our liberties for supposed security, from everything including local government policy, to the Federal Government...There is a tipping point. For instance take a look at the TSA, and how we fly now....We allow them to x-ray, and photograph us nude, and submit to strip searches based on random, PC criteria....just to take public transportation like air travel. Now although it is a necessary evil today, some level of personal liberty for the greater safety of the public at large will no doubt always be sacrificed, but you are correct in asking the question as to how much.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    if not the leaker/whistleblower, who?

    congress?

    “I can assure you the phone number tracking of non-criminal, non-terrorist suspects was not discussed [at the administration's classified briefings],” said [Congressman Aaron] Schock. “Most members have stopped going to their classified briefings because they rarely tell us anything we don’t already know in the news. It really has become a charade.”
    Lawmakers rebut Obama's data defense - Reid J. Epstein - POLITICO.com

    "By the way,” [Senator Jeff] Merkley continued. “When I sought information [on the phone surveillance program], the only information I got was that, yes there is a program sweeping up broad amounts of data through the records act. This second thing, which we just learned about, called PRISM, I had no idea about.”
    Dem. Senator disputes Obama's claims that Congress was briefed

    The only lawmakers who knew about PRISM were bound by oaths of office to hold their tongues.
    U.S. is spying on Web servers - Philly.com

    the judiciary?

    US government invokes special privilege to stop scrutiny of data mining | World news | guardian.co.uk

    Justice Department Fights Release of Secret Court Opinion Finding Unconstitutional Surveillance | Mother Jones

    remember, nsa alexander in testimony before the house 14 times assured hank johnson that no data collection was going on

    Horrible timing: National Security Agency lists 'Digital Network Exploitation Analyst' internship opening as controversy swirls over digital snooping scandal | Mail Online

    in the senate odni clapper said the same to ron wyden

    DNI James Clapper says that the NSA does not collect data on millions of Americans - YouTube

    "any type of data collection at all?"

    "not wittingly..."

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    For the most part I agree, but didn't you also say this:

    "I have stated my thoughts that FISA is appropriate to handle the contemporary terrorist threat..."

    FISA is a secret court, with one side presented, and compromised in the essence that the government as we see under this administration will 'judge shop' until they get the answer they want. FISA is corrupted at this point.
    That's a fair point. I was referring to the law, not solely the court. Congress has oversight over the FISA court. It would make sense that Congress would take that responsibility seriously in the post-9/11 world where cases before the court have increased markedly. If not, then the process needs to be reviewed and fixed.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Nothing more than opinion. This is an entirely subjective comment which says nothing of the legitimacy of Snowden's actions.


    Apparently, Snowden, the NSA and all the other people involved in this did get to pick and choose so this comment is erroneous.


    Who is approving of someone outing a secret just because it advances their political views? You are the first person I've seen say such a thing.


    So again, blame everybody but the actual people who implemented the programs. How logical.


    In other words, "No, I am not American." Funny that you consider the question pejorative after the derogatory manner in which you referred to some Americans. Double standards, I suppose.
    Actually, that's not in other words. I'll stand by my statement that the real people to blame are weak willed Americans who label themselves brave but vote out of fear. And that doesn't become more or less true because of where you think I'm from. Give me a valid reason why you should care where I'm from, and I'll answer it. (not that it means anything) Otherwise no thank you.

    We sold our freedom because we were terrified of terrorists. Now we're terrified that the government may use the powers we gave them against us. Fear fear fear..... Land of the free and home of the brave? Those two concepts are paired together for good reason, you can't have the former without the latter.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    hero of the nam era left:

    The man who leaked the Pentagon Papers is praising Edward Snowden, saying he’s “impressed” by the man who says he revealed secret National Security Agency surveillance programs.

    “I’m very impressed by what I’ve heard in the last couple of hours including Snowden’s own video here. I think he’s done an enormous service, incalculable service,” Daniel Ellsberg said Sunday night on CNN. “It can’t be overestimated to this democracy. It gives us a chance, I think, from drawing back from the total surveillance state that we could say we’re in process of becoming, I’m afraid we have become. That’s what he’s revealed.”

    Ellsberg said that despite a “clear law” outlawing such leaks, if he had been in Snowden’s position he would have done the same thing.

    “If I had known that the NSA, the National Security Agency, as I say, to which I had access, if I had known that they were spying on every American multiple times, different phone lines, bank data, credit cards, GPS, everything else, if I had known that, I would have done just what he’s done. I would have broken that law of civil disobedience,” he said.

    In 1971, Ellsberg gave The New York Times and The Washington Post classified documents about the conduct of the Vietnam War and became the first person prosecuted under the 1917 Espionage Act. The case was later thrown out after it was revealed the government had illegally wiretapped Ellsberg.

    Ellsberg said he has waited “decades” for someone like Snowden. “Decades in a sense that of seeing somebody who really was prepared to risk his life for his country as a civilian. To show the kind of courage that we expect of people on the battlefield,” he said on CNN.

    Ellsberg said he fully expects Snowden to be prosecuted, a case which he said will bring up the constitutionality of the government’s surveillance practice.

    “I have no doubt that this violates the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution and probably other parts of the Bill of Rights and should have been exposed,” Ellsberg said. “Can it really be a crime to expose crime? Or that’s never been judged by any court. Including the Supreme Court. I think this is a good time to look at it.”
    Daniel Ellsberg thanks Edward Snowden - Hadas Gold - POLITICO.com

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