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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

  1. #191
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    The man is a criminal and should be prosecuted. Hero's don't hide in China.

    I fully support whistle-blowers, but whistle-blowing doesn’t give someone carte blanche to reveal any secret they're morally opposed to. Would anyone support someone who published the Normandy Invasion plans because they believed it wouldn't work? Whistle-blowing should be protected to cover individuals who reveal evidence of clear government wrongdoing. Revealing something that you'd don't want the government to do isn't whistle blowing, it's part sabotage, part espionage, and part treason.

    There's no clear evidence of government crime here. For better or worse, (mostly the latter) these programs are the will of the American people. You could have possibly made the case for illegality under the Bush years, when the Executive Branch operated in defiance of the FISA court. But since then these programs have been placed under supervision of all three branches of government. Furthermore, these programs shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's followed the issue.

    I didn't support the programs at the time, and I don't see any need to have them now. But they were implemented legally and with proper oversight. If you don't like the programs blame the people who didn't speak out against them when they could. Blame the partisans who should have known better. Blame the weak willed American people who convinced themselves to give up rights and privacy in the name of "freedom", and then congratulated themselves on their "bravery".

    If you feel that the oversight is incompetent (and it is). Then fire your incompetent representatives.
    Excellent post!
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  2. #192
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    I think the only credible elected officals on this issue are the ones who did not vote for the patriot act or have protested againist it.

    I think senators mark udall of Colorado, Jeff merkley or Oregon, and rand Paul of Kentucky are part of the small minority who think this fisa mess has gone too far.
    Agreed. Saw Udall and Paul on the Sunday shows. This case is making for strange bedfellows, both in the big political arena, and right here in DP.

    Let us remind folks of a relevant quip by another American who defied his government .................

    Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither
    ............. Ben Franklin

    ...... and another that rates some merit on this topic as well:

    "We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."

    I ask those who base their argument on the "fact" (alleged) that government has done nothing illegal, and that Snowden is therefore a criminal.

    Just how many crimes did Parliament commit against the colonies 1765-1774 ?
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 06-10-13 at 12:44 PM.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Seems that whenever something like this happens, there's a statement saying that "'x' program has already thwarted x-number of plots, but we can't give details".

    Well, sorry Mr Government Intelligence Community bureaucrat, but when you've already been proven to be a liar regarding whether these things are even happening, I have no reason to believe you now. Either pony up some specifics or save your breath.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  4. #194
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” -Benjamin Franklin
    While I sympathize with the sentiment of that quote in this situation, it's too simplistic for me. Everyone is willing to sacrifice some freedom for security. Therefore, the question is not whether or not we are willing to sacrifice freedom for security, but to what degree we are willing to make the sacrifice.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Anyone else notice that most of the Congresspeople the most upset aren't upset that we are included in this, but upset that they're included in this?

    A few notable exceptions, of course.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  6. #196
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    While we are on the subject of this whistle blower did any one notice what his job description was? He was a intellegence contractor.

    Does it scare anybody that we have now created a business where company's are hired by the government with the purpouse of gathering our private information?

  7. #197
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    The man is a criminal and should be prosecuted. Hero's don't hide in China.

    I fully support whistle-blowers, but whistle-blowing doesn’t give someone carte blanche to reveal any secret they're morally opposed to. Would anyone support someone who published the Normandy Invasion plans because they believed it wouldn't work? Whistle-blowing should be protected to cover individuals who reveal evidence of clear government wrongdoing. Revealing something that you'd don't want the government to do isn't whistle blowing, it's part sabotage, part espionage, and part treason.
    "Clear government wrongdoing" in this case is subjective. I think that Snowden revealed "clear government wrongdoing." You don't. Therefore, that isn't a solid standard on which to dismiss the real or potential value of Snowden's actions.

    There's no clear evidence of government crime here. For better or worse, (mostly the latter) these programs are the will of the American people. You could have possibly made the case for illegality under the Bush years, when the Executive Branch operated in defiance of the FISA court. But since then these programs have been placed under supervision of all three branches of government. Furthermore, these programs shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's followed the issue.
    Crime and illegality are not the only indication of problem. Therefore, dismissing criticism of these revelations because "no clear evidence of a crime" exists isn't legitimate. Also, I am one of the "American people." These programs are not my will. I also don't find these programs surprising nor do most of the people who are criticizing them - that's a red herring.

    I didn't support the programs at the time, and I don't see any need to have them now. But they were implemented legally and with proper oversight. If you don't like the programs blame the people who didn't speak out against them when they could. Blame the partisans who should have known better. Blame the weak willed American people who convinced themselves to give up rights and privacy in the name of "freedom", and then congratulated themselves on their "bravery".

    If you feel that the oversight is incompetent (and it is). Then fire your incompetent representatives.
    Right, blame everybody but the people who implemented the programs. How logical.

    Question: Are you American? You sound like a foreigner who has a beef with the United States.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    While I sympathize with the sentiment of that quote in this situation, it's too simplistic for me. Everyone is willing to sacrifice some freedom for security. Therefore, the question is not whether or not we are willing to sacrifice freedom for security, but to what degree we are willing to make the sacrifice.
    I think a large issue has been the lack of transparency. Obama expanded a program which he most assuredly promised that he would not do.

    Otherwise, its the death of your liberty by 1000 cuts !

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I think a large issue has been the lack of transparency. Obama expanded a program which he most assuredly promised that he would not do.

    Otherwise, its the death of your liberty by 1000 cuts !
    I was willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt until he came out with his dismissive response. Disappointing to say the least.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    While I sympathize with the sentiment of that quote in this situation, it's too simplistic for me. Everyone is willing to sacrifice some freedom for security. Therefore, the question is not whether or not we are willing to sacrifice freedom for security, but to what degree we are willing to make the sacrifice.

    Well, no. Franklin wasn't opposed to legal gathering of information on suspected criminals. This is the long standing delineation between freedom and security. The issue now is that we've leaped over that long standing line and now gather information on people who are not suspected of any crime.

    What is really at the root of this explosion of federal intrusion is the politically correct culture that has run amok. In lieu of tracking down criminals and building a case for government intrusion into their lives, we've chosen just to gather everyone's data equally, essentially surveilling all Americans as if they are guilty of a crime.

    The issue here is not whether the data mining is unfair to criminals, it is about putting too much information in the hands of government that can and will be (and undoubtedly already has been) used for purposes other than national security. In that same vein, people don't oppose a national medical database because they are afraid of the efficiency it would bring. They fear it for the kind of abuses it makes possible.

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