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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

  1. #131
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. No one, including this program is "monitoring all your private activites". This program didn't even - as near as we can tell - monitor your electronic records, but rather stored the point-to-point data, making the actual content available for retrieval if one of those points turned out to be something associated with a legitimate intelligence target. If you are emailing Zawahiri on a regular basis, then you should be monitored, and I have no problem whatsoever with that. You are mistaking the program itself with a potential abuse of it. That is like saying that we mustn't have a military, because they could kill us all. Well, yes. The military could abuse it's power. That is not a good argument against a military.

    2. There is not much difference between using HUMINT observers to collect the same level of data as SIGINT platforms. If the cop observes you going into the Krispy Kreme, and an antenna picks up the cellphone in your pocket going into the Krispy Kreme, two different platforms have just logged the same (rough) information.



    As I said, I'm reserving final judgement. But the OMAGERDOMAGERDOMAGERD reaction isn't going to help us accurately assess the program in the responsible manner expected of those communities who claim the ability to competently self-govern.
    I think you are massively understating the problem....

    US government to read private emails and monitor online activity

    http://mashable.com/2012/03/02/socia...ng-monitoring/

    IRS to monitor Facebook, Twitter for tax cheats ? RT USA

    CIA Admits Full Monitoring of Facebook and Other Social Networks | The Liberty Beacon
    "The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without."

    ~Dwight D. Eisenhower

  2. #132
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. No one, including this program is "monitoring all your private activites". This program didn't even - as near as we can tell - monitor your electronic records, but rather stored the point-to-point data, making the actual content available for retrieval if one of those points turned out to be something associated with a legitimate intelgence target.
    Did you guys ever think that perhaps that is stepping over the line and they don't need to actually know everything to be stepping over it? Perhaps the government has no business spying on us in the first place. No, the problem couldn't be that they are spying to begin with.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    That kind of presumes that all that was happening was determining links. So far what the data was actually used for wasn't disclosed
    what we have learned is that that is, in fact, what the program was used for - to determine links in order to cue follow on collection which would involve searching content. So, for example, if you do email a bomb - facilitator in Pakistan, that email may be pulled out of data banks and read so that the analyst can see if you are using any recognized code words or referencing anything of value or note.

    What we have here is notification that there is an iceberg in the water. We don't yet know how big an iceberg it is or what danger it presents.
    That is a good point - the full extent of this program has not been released or discussed; only the sensational elements that are most newsworthy have thus far entered into the public discourse.

  4. #134
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanstantine View Post
    We're not at war with all residents of the United States.

    Right?
    If you have to ask that question, you don't understand the nature of the enemy we're facing. Snowden stole and disseminated classified information. That's a heavy crime with heavy ramifications, and he needs to be brought back to the US to stand trial for his actions. He already jeopardized the careers and livelihood of everyone he knows, and is close to as he hides out in Hong Kong. He isn't a hero, he's a coward, and if what he said was true, he'd bring himself to the States to face the consequences of his actions.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Basic data scans that allow for follow on actual collection if you trip given triggers. So, for example, (and this has happened) if you start a facebook page to plan a bombing, hey, we may read that page so that we can stop you. If you hop on gmail to chat with Zawahiri, hey, that connection is going to set off some little alarm bells.

    Again, I'm not saying that the program doesn't have immense possibility of abuse. I'm not even saying it hasn't been abused. I'm just saying that the program as designed is not the scenario being outlined, and that rational discussion of it needs to work from what it is and what it does and what it can do (good and bad), not what we can hype.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Wag your finger elsewhere. If you haven't noticed, we're at war. Releasing classified information is a capitol offense, but lordy lord we're facing dark days when laws are still enforced, trials are still given, due process is doled out, and something that used to mean death by hanging will likely result in nothing but some time in prison, even though some, like Manning, should most definitely receive the fullest punishment afforded by law.
    I know we're at War. But that does not mean every man, woman and child in the U.S. is a target suitable for intelligence gathering. The War on Terrorism has to have some boundaries, especially and particularly when it involves us, don't you agree?

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    I know we're at War. But that does not mean every man, woman and child in the U.S. is a target suitable for intelligence gathering. The War on Terrorism has to have some boundaries, especially and particularly when it involves us, don't you agree?
    Exactly. My interactions on the Internet are not of their concern. If they can't understand this, then yes, we do indeed have a problem. I really don't understand how anyone can't consider this guy a hero. It just makes no sense to me.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanstantine View Post
    Agreed.

    There are many things the government could do that would save many lives, such as confiscating all firearms, injecting all citizens with a RFID-GPS chip, requiring presentation of photo ID at all public transit stations, limiting newspapers to only pro-government op-eds, instituting the death penalty for all felonies.

    That doesn't mean we should allow our government to engage in such things.
    I'm glad you added the last sentence because the first one screams communism.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    I particularly enjoyed Snowdens comment that he flead to China because of their commitment to free speech and open political dissent. I'll bet this was a fun topic for obummer and the Chinese dictator this week.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by CalGun View Post
    I particularly enjoyed Snowdens comment that he flead to China because of their commitment to free speech and open political dissent. I'll bet this was a fun topic for obummer and the Chinese dictator this week.
    Hong Kong =/= PRC.

    But yeah. If it got brought up outside of the Senkakus, economic policy, etc., I wonder what was said Would be fun to be a fly on the wall.

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