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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

  1. #121
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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    What bothers me more than anything at this point is that it is quite obvious that a number of people haven't read much about the issue. That hasn't stopped them from being adamant about their positions. That is scary as all hell.










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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    Three clear cut examples of why this country is heading for nothing but darker days. Shame on the three of you, and any one else that condones and agrees with them. ****ing ridiculous is what it is.
    Wag your finger elsewhere. If you haven't noticed, we're at war. Releasing classified information is a capitol offense, but lordy lord we're facing dark days when laws are still enforced, trials are still given, due process is doled out, and something that used to mean death by hanging will likely result in nothing but some time in prison, even though some, like Manning, should most definitely receive the fullest punishment afforded by law.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Absent treaty obligations, we're free to collect on that outside the borders so long as it is in line with the national intelligence program and the collection priorities and taskings set for us.



    Warrants have to be issued to justify a search, which can be conducted without warrants only in extraordinary and defined circumstances. You don't have to like that, but it is the law.



    The NSA did not collect and analyze the content of your cellphone interchanges - and anyone who did so without a warrant is a criminal and liable to prosecution both inside and outside of the IC. What they did was (as we understand it thus far) collect your point-to-point transactions in order to cue further collection if it turned out you were making lots of calls to terror-cell membership.

    So, an example of the data might look like:

    Originally Posted by NSA's records of Kanstantine:
    201305061230: 205-555-5555 -> 205-777-7777
    201305061235: 205-555-5555 -> 970-888-8888
    201305061657: 205-555-5555 -> 205-777-7777

    Yet, if you allow what you see above, how are you going to object when they add identifying information to it, and publicly available information to that? The phone records are the keystone to privacy, in this case. Without it, privacy cannot hold.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    Touché

    As a progressive I do believe in using the government to improve the lives of the citizenry. Such as using progressive taxation to ensure everyone has access to health care and a college education or heavily regulating industry to ensure the well being of the people and the planet isn’t compromised in the name of the profit motive.

    The government can be a very useful tool, but it depends on how we wield it. The government as it currently stands, heavily in the pockets of corporations and stacked with career politicians only interested in accumulating more influence and power, is NOT a tool of the people. It would take term limits and serious campaign finance reform to start getting the government on track to being the kind of government this progressive would want.

    In the meantime, there are definitely things I think the government should NOT be doing. Collecting taxes to make services available to all Americans is a great thing, in my opinion. Monitoring the communications of citizens without probable cause is not. So this program saves lives. I am still against it. DUI checkpoints save lives. I am against those. Stop and frisk probably saved lives. Yep, I’m against it. As my conservative friends often point out in the gun control threads, freedom is inherently dangerous.

    In the liberty vs security equation, the increase in security has to be MUCH greater than the liberty that is given up to satisfy me. And since the risk of an American being the victim of a terrorist attack is miniscule, all these programs in the name of the War on Terror are crap.
    Agreed.

    There are many things the government could do that would save many lives, such as confiscating all firearms, injecting all citizens with a RFID-GPS chip, requiring presentation of photo ID at all public transit stations, limiting newspapers to only pro-government op-eds, instituting the death penalty for all felonies.

    That doesn't mean we should allow our government to engage in such things.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Wag your finger elsewhere. If you haven't noticed, we're at war. Releasing classified information is a capitol offense, but lordy lord we're facing dark days when laws are still enforced, trials are still given, due process is doled out, and something that used to mean death by hanging will likely result in nothing but some time in prison, even though some, like Manning, should most definitely receive the fullest punishment afforded by law.
    We're not at war with all residents of the United States.

    Right?

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanstantine View Post
    Police don't engage in searches of everyone they see on the street.
    On the contrary, that is part of their job - they are collecting wherever they go. State observation of our behavior is a reality.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'll make something perfectly damn clear in return. You seem to have no ****ing idea what you are talking about, and appear to be mostly reacting from emotion rather than rational analysis. I would look with a question at the claim that it is spying to have a point-to-point record, as no content is collected. Having a record of all numbers called by Verizon customers so that you can scan them in order to see if anyone is calling suicide-bomber-facilitators in Pakistan strikes me as a reasonable program, especially if it is overseen by both Congress and the Judiciary.
    That kind of presumes that all that was happening was determining links. So far what the data was actually used for wasn't disclosed. What we have here is notification that there is an iceberg in the water. We don't yet know how big an iceberg it is or what danger it presents.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    And just what did you expect them to say ? What, another bunch of Miami rastafarians who thought they could topple the Sears Tower in Chicago have been thwarted ?
    Is it your contention that Republicans are lying to us in order to cover for the Obama administration? That members of the Legislature are lying in order to cover for the Executive? Do you have any evidence of this?

    After the hypocritical crap from no less than Obama, first in criticizing Bush over the harvesting of meta-data from overseas calls, and then committing that he would never do it, its quite a betrayal of trust from the transparent liar in chief. This was never a secret from the bad guys. Just from the average Joe.
    Oh yeah, Obama definitely misled his supporters on this issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kanstantine
    Yes, terrorists are now forced to no longer use cellphones to communicate their terrorist plans.

    They will have to rely on carrier pigeons and skywriting to get their plans across.
    Actually pigeons have been used before to escape US SIGINT targeting efforts - Pablo Escobar, for example. But I find it cute how you are attempting to use sarcasm to cover for the lack of an effective response.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucky View Post
    This is way overboard and you know it...It's one thing for the police to pull you over for a traffic violation or respond to a call....It's a completely different beast when they monitor all of your private activities without any reason whatsoever.
    1. No one, including this program is "monitoring all your private activites". This program didn't even - as near as we can tell - monitor your electronic records, but rather stored the point-to-point data, making the actual content available for retrieval if one of those points turned out to be something associated with a legitimate intelligence target. If you are emailing Zawahiri on a regular basis, then you should be monitored, and I have no problem whatsoever with that. You are mistaking the program itself with a potential abuse of it. That is like saying that we mustn't have a military, because they could kill us all. Well, yes. The military could abuse it's power. That is not a good argument against a military.

    2. There is not much difference between using HUMINT observers to collect the same level of data as SIGINT platforms. If the cop observes you going into the Krispy Kreme, and an antenna picks up the cellphone in your pocket going into the Krispy Kreme, two different platforms have just logged the same (rough) information.



    As I said, I'm reserving final judgement. But the OMAGERDOMAGERDOMAGERD reaction isn't going to help us accurately assess the program in the responsible manner expected of those communities who claim the ability to competently self-govern.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    Touché

    As a progressive I do believe in using the government to improve the lives of the citizenry. Such as using progressive taxation to ensure everyone has access to health care and a college education or heavily regulating industry to ensure the well being of the people and the planet isn’t compromised in the name of the profit motive.

    The government can be a very useful tool, but it depends on how we wield it. The government as it currently stands, heavily in the pockets of corporations and stacked with career politicians only interested in accumulating more influence and power, is NOT a tool of the people.
    This is perhaps a question better suited for another thread....

    but if the government at current is a tool of corporations stacked with career politicians rather than a tool of the people (and whose actions are often inimical to the peoples' best interest).... then why in the world do you want it put in charge of running healthcare, industry, and education? Aren't you openly stating here that you are assigning a fox to guard the henhouses - and not just any henhouses, but how we earn our livings, take care of our children, and our own personal bodies?

    In the meantime, there are definitely things I think the government should NOT be doing. Collecting taxes to make services available to all Americans is a great thing, in my opinion. Monitoring the communications of citizens without probable cause is not. So this program saves lives. I am still against it. DUI checkpoints save lives. I am against those. Stop and frisk probably saved lives. Yep, I’m against it. As my conservative friends often point out in the gun control threads, freedom is inherently dangerous.

    In the liberty vs security equation, the increase in security has to be MUCH greater than the liberty that is given up to satisfy me. And since the risk of an American being the victim of a terrorist attack is miniscule, all these programs in the name of the War on Terror are crap.
    I'll don't really see what freedom (what liberty) is being especially infringed upon here, although I certainly recognize the incredible possibility for abuse. But yeah this is an unusual switching of positions.

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