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Thread: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Those who have been read in would delete the "possible". They have released statements that it has stopped attacks inside CONUS.
    And just what did you expect them to say ? What, another bunch of Miami rastafarians who thought they could topple the Sears Tower in Chicago have been thwarted ?

    and here I thought you were a progressive. Why shouldn't government be there to help guide us into making all those decisions that we are so poorly suited to make for ourselves?
    After the hypocritical crap from no less than Obama, first in criticizing Bush over the harvesting of meta-data from overseas calls, and then committing that he would never do it, its quite a betrayal of trust from the transparent liar in chief. This was never a secret from the bad guys. Just from the average Joe.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I have very little faith that this ability would not be misused. But, then, I have very little faith that any government power would not be misused. The possibility for abuse is not in and of itself a good argument against a government program for the simple reason that that (as applied) is an argument against all government.

    And yes. By outing this platform, Snowden has rendered it useless, cutting future counter-terror efforts off from the information they would otherwise have gathered, making them less likely to stop attacks inside the US. Any honest discussion of this needs to account for that.
    Yes, terrorists are now forced to no longer use cellphones to communicate their terrorist plans.

    They will have to rely on carrier pigeons and skywriting to get their plans across.

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    Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanstantine View Post
    Yes, terrorists are now forced to no longer use cellphones to communicate their terrorist plans.

    They will have to rely on carrier pigeons and skywriting to get their plans across.
    Or the Internet.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    [QUOTE=cpwill;1061908402]1. I am unconvinced that the program itself is an infringement of civil liberties.


    2. Collection programs and methodologies are and must be classified for the simple enough reason that otherwise they become useless.
    Tapping phones? Collecting internet searches? Collecting private information? Collecting phone records and documents? Just anyones any American citizens?
    How is that not against the 4th amendment?


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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    It seems like many people think there is some distinction between the NSA reading/hearing the contents of our communications and simply knowing who, how often, and for how long we make contact with specific people. It turns out that the distinction isn't as great as we might suppose. They don't need the content for someone to know what is going on in your personal life. As such, prying into this kind of information is certainly a violation of your private, personal space.

    Here is the article that explains why:
    Verizon and the N.S.A.: The Problem with Metadata : The New Yorker

    If we really don't think that the government knowing your personal business is any big deal, then why not take it to its fullest. Why not just let them put cameras and microphones in your home, work and car. After all, I am certain this would save lives, which seems to be the only justification the government needs any more for people to just knuckle under. I am so disappointed in my fellow Americans right now, especially Obama.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Gah. Guess we'd better pull all those police off the streets, then. Did you know that they observe massive numbers of Americans on a regular, daily basis?
    This is way overboard and you know it...It's one thing for the police to pull you over for a traffic violation or respond to a call....It's a completely different beast when they monitor all of your private activities without any reason whatsoever.
    "The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without."

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    And yes. By outing this platform, Snowden has rendered it useless, cutting future counter-terror efforts off from the information they would otherwise have gathered, making them less likely to stop attacks inside the US. Any honest discussion of this needs to account for that.
    That is nonsense. Are you shocked to find out that the government can trace anything it wants to ? We've been doing it for years !! You had to know this as current military. I am ex-military, and I knew it ! The enemy knows it !! The only thing that is new is the Big Brother has been harvesting it on all of us all of the time for the last few years.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanstantine View Post
    The NSA requested and received a warrant for all records of international cellphone calls between the USA and other nations?
    Absent treaty obligations, we're free to collect on that outside the borders so long as it is in line with the national intelligence program and the collection priorities and taskings set for us.

    Since when does having a warrant mean the search cannot be unConstitutional?
    Warrants have to be issued to justify a search, which can be conducted without warrants only in extraordinary and defined circumstances. You don't have to like that, but it is the law.

    What probable cause did the NSA use to justify retrieval of my cellphone records?
    The NSA did not collect and analyze the content of your cellphone interchanges - and anyone who did so without a warrant is a criminal and liable to prosecution both inside and outside of the IC. What they did was (as we understand it thus far) collect your point-to-point transactions in order to cue further collection if it turned out you were making lots of calls to terror-cell membership.

    So, an example of the data might look like:

    Quote Originally Posted by NSA's records of Kanstantine
    201305061230: 205-555-5555 -> 205-777-7777
    201305061235: 205-555-5555 -> 970-888-8888
    201305061657: 205-555-5555 -> 205-777-7777
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-10-13 at 01:08 AM.

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Warrants have to be issued to justify a search, which can be conducted without warrants only in extraordinary and defined circumstances. You don't have to like that, but it is the law.



    The NSA did not collect and analyze the content of your cellphone interchanges - and anyone who did so without a warrant is a criminal and liable to prosecution both inside and outside of the IC. What they did was (as we understand it thus far) collect your point-to-point transactions in order to cue further collection if it turned out you were making lots of calls to terror-cell membership.

    So, an example of the data might look like:



    Which violates the 4th Amendment.

    What probable cause did they have to demand my phone records?

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    Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and here I thought you were a progressive. Why shouldn't government be there to help guide us into making all those decisions that we are so poorly suited to make for ourselves?
    Touché

    As a progressive I do believe in using the government to improve the lives of the citizenry. Such as using progressive taxation to ensure everyone has access to health care and a college education or heavily regulating industry to ensure the well being of the people and the planet isn’t compromised in the name of the profit motive.

    The government can be a very useful tool, but it depends on how we wield it. The government as it currently stands, heavily in the pockets of corporations and stacked with career politicians only interested in accumulating more influence and power, is NOT a tool of the people. It would take term limits and serious campaign finance reform to start getting the government on track to being the kind of government this progressive would want.

    In the meantime, there are definitely things I think the government should NOT be doing. Collecting taxes to make services available to all Americans is a great thing, in my opinion. Monitoring the communications of citizens without probable cause is not. So this program saves lives. I am still against it. DUI checkpoints save lives. I am against those. Stop and frisk probably saved lives. Yep, I’m against it. As my conservative friends often point out in the gun control threads, freedom is inherently dangerous.

    In the liberty vs security equation, the increase in security has to be MUCH greater than the liberty that is given up to satisfy me. And since the risk of an American being the victim of a terrorist attack is miniscule, all these programs in the name of the War on Terror are crap.

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