10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

Dr. Chuckles said:

Ok? But you clearly wrote "we spend more money per student than anyone". And while that may be true, it is also true that spending isn't equal across the board.

Not sure what you are taking issue with there, if you don't disagree.

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I can't help if it isn't perfectly equal, I mean people pay their share of taxes and expect those local taxes to be spent locally. Communism tries to make everyone equal regardless of effort, that's not what we're about here. Communism subsidizes the lazy, and that's why it doesn't work. Frankly we all pay enough taxes that even in the poorest places I have no doubt that money is wasted. The US spends more education than anyone, and has little to show for it. So money is not always the answer, contrary to the opinions of progressives like HoJ. Remember I talked about effort, well I suspect there's a lack of effort on the part of some families to instill the proper attitude into children. Cracking a book open doesn't cost anything.

Spaceman_Spiff said:

If your hypothesis is that liberal policies lead to reports of violence like this, then why is the North Side of Chicago one of the safest and richest cities in the United States?

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I'd say that the numbers are skewed in the northern burbs to protect the "Chicago money", Wealth, and property values. When the Tribune was asked why its reporting on stats didn't include:

"a 2009 triple murder in Wilmette. This was on March 3, 2009. The suburbanite who had already committed a double murder, now took his own life and that of his wife and kid. Several months later, the Tribune/Redeye seems to deny that these homicides took place. What else have our Chicago Newspapers forgotten to tell us about actual suburban crime rate based upon the census? Must the City folk not hear about North Shore homicides? It certainly reports Chicago statistics to the suburbanites!"

snip

"As the Morse Hell hole occasionally belches crime, the burbs bury it with bravado! We don't hear about the large scale drug busts. Sometimes, we hear about the Rezko's. Is the goal to keep suburban real estate values up? Do racial and economic barriers keep crime out? Does the decision to create schools with 99% white students benefit society (e.g. Braeside School, under 1% Black; Highland Park)?"

The Rogers Park Inconsistent - Chicago, Illinois: The Skewed Crime Blotter for the Northshore

If you knew anything about Chicago, this should be easy to answer.

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:lamo Why is it that liberals feel they must always throw in that little snarky jab to everything they respond to? Look pal, I was born in Berwyn, Il...If you know Chicago, then you'll know where that is, and I grew up in Lansing Mi. I have stated this more than a few times in here. See, this is BS, liberals always feel, and try to use the argument that if you are not a lawyer you can't comment on the law, if you are not a teacher then you can't comment on education, if you are not a doctor then you can't comment on anything medical. This crap that you must be involved in that which you are commenting on predisposes that people are ignorant to anything outside their own little earthly bubble, and is a fallacy.

Given the links you posted, then you must really love the reforms Garry McCarthy has taken at tackling the areas where crime is the highest since it is the epitome of James Q. Wilson's 'Broken Windows Theory.' Results so far this year are good, though it is questionable if the gains will maintain for the remaining part of the year.

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McCarthy so far is I believe doing a horribly difficult job, under immense pressure, and although not to the level of success that was seen in NYC he is stuck in the middle between Emmanuel's cuts, and rising lawlessness. The police chief has a higher approval than the wanna be tough guy Emmanuel.

"The mayor's approval rating on crime is holding steady from a year ago at 45 percent. But the number of voters who disapprove is rising — from 34 percent last May to 47 percent in the current survey. McCarthy, meanwhile, was viewed as doing well by nearly 6 in 10 voters."

Chicagoans split on Emanuel's handling of crime - Chicago Tribune

There has also been lengthy debates among sociologists about why Chicago did not see similar large drops in crimes like other major cities during the 1990s that stem from the demographics of city neighborhoods. I am sure you know all about those.

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Yep, I've seen them...Bunch of pretentious egg heads sitting on panels trying to justify their existence, and spending of taxpayer dollars to do study after study all to come to conclusions that have little to no basis in reality, or practical application. Anyone with common sense knows the problems of hoods like Cicero, Berwyn, etc....

I do it find funny that you call Chicago a blight when you live in an economic backwater like South Carolina.

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Well, I, over the course of my life have moved to different places. For 20 years I lived just north, up I95 from Baltimore, and moved south to get away from the wealth sucking, crime ridden, over priced liberal hell hole that Martin O'Malley was creating, and I love it....But you just go ahead and keep regarding those in the south as some sort of uneducated rubes, and any other insulting terms you have for them, but just make sure you stay out....We don't want you down here.

American said:

I can't help if it isn't perfectly equal

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No one mentioned any such thing. What was addressed was your misleading claim about spending the"most per pupil, while blatently ignoring that expenditure can be totally imbalanced. hence, rendering your point rather moot

Communism tries to make everyone equal regardless of effort, that's not what we're about here.

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How the **** does this relate to anything I wrote? Pro-tip: make sure your reply has some relevancy to the thing you're addressing. My point dealt with how citing a total figure for expenditure/per student was misleading. Going "derp, but communism, therefore blarg" doesn't address that. because there was no notion about people being equal in my post. In it's entirety, it dealt with how the total expenditure number you cited gives a misleading picture of school funding

Frankly we all pay enough taxes that even in the poorest places I have no doubt that money is wasted.

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I agree that there is lots we can do besides spending money to deal with poor performing schools (see Michele Rhee's efforts in DC). In fact, I never even wrote anything that suggested otherwisse. hence why your rant and knee-jerk reaction is so hilarious

The US spends more education than anyone, and has little to show for it.

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No, we have some amazing schools to show for it. But we also have extremely underfunded schools that tend to perform extremely poorly. Does that mean the only solution is tossing money at them, or even doing so will solve any of their on going problems? No, and if I thought so, I would have probably included such remarks in my original post, dittums. But when students don't even have proper text books, extra money would certainly help

So money is not always the answer

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Again, I never claimed money was always the answer. You posted a rather misleading claim and I corrected it. Your response was to go into a hysterical rant about communism and look silly

contrary to the opinions of progressives like HoJ. Remember I talked about effort, well I suspect there's a lack of effort on the part of some families to instill the proper attitude into children. Cracking a book open doesn't cost anything.

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actually yes it does; they need access to the book to crack it open (buy it). Unfortunately, in some schools, that is becoming exceedingly difficult

j-mac said:

I'd say that the numbers are skewed in the northern burbs to protect the "Chicago money", Wealth, and property values. When the Tribune was asked why its reporting on stats didn't include:

"a 2009 triple murder in Wilmette. This was on March 3, 2009. The suburbanite who had already committed a double murder, now took his own life and that of his wife and kid. Several months later, the Tribune/Redeye seems to deny that these homicides took place. What else have our Chicago Newspapers forgotten to tell us about actual suburban crime rate based upon the census? Must the City folk not hear about North Shore homicides? It certainly reports Chicago statistics to the suburbanites!"

snip

"As the Morse Hell hole occasionally belches crime, the burbs bury it with bravado! We don't hear about the large scale drug busts. Sometimes, we hear about the Rezko's. Is the goal to keep suburban real estate values up? Do racial and economic barriers keep crime out? Does the decision to create schools with 99% white students benefit society (e.g. Braeside School, under 1% Black; Highland Park)?"

The Rogers Park Inconsistent - Chicago, Illinois: The Skewed Crime Blotter for the Northshore

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There is a difference between the government fudging numbers to paint a rosier picture than what is going on and newspapers not reporting a story. Do you have any credible evidence that it is the former and not the latter?

You still did not answer my question about why the North Side is doing so much better than the South Side despite having the same city government.

j-mac said:

:lamo Why is it that liberals feel they must always throw in that little snarky jab to everything they respond to? Look pal, I was born in Berwyn, Il...If you know Chicago, then you'll know where that is, and I grew up in Lansing Mi. I have stated this more than a few times in here. See, this is BS, liberals always feel, and try to use the argument that if you are not a lawyer you can't comment on the law, if you are not a teacher then you can't comment on education, if you are not a doctor then you can't comment on anything medical. This crap that you must be involved in that which you are commenting on predisposes that people are ignorant to anything outside their own little earthly bubble, and is a fallacy.

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I just want to make sure that if you want to have a serious debate that you know what you are talking about.

j-mac said:

McCarthy so far is I believe doing a horribly difficult job, under immense pressure, and although not to the level of success that was seen in NYC he is stuck in the middle between Emmanuel's cuts, and rising lawlessness. The police chief has a higher approval than the wanna be tough guy Emmanuel.

"The mayor's approval rating on crime is holding steady from a year ago at 45 percent. But the number of voters who disapprove is rising — from 34 percent last May to 47 percent in the current survey. McCarthy, meanwhile, was viewed as doing well by nearly 6 in 10 voters."

Chicagoans split on Emanuel's handling of crime - Chicago Tribune

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My comments have nothing to do with approval numbers, but rather tactics you claimed cities do not take because they coddle criminals. I was merely pointing out that McCarthy has pinpointed the troublesome areas and bombarded them with extra police. At the same time they have identified a number of citizens that have a high probability that could be involved in future gang related shootings. Both of these are steps you ought to be applauding.

j-mac said:

Yep, I've seen them...Bunch of pretentious egg heads sitting on panels trying to justify their existence, and spending of taxpayer dollars to do study after study all to come to conclusions that have little to no basis in reality, or practical application. Anyone with common sense knows the problems of hoods like Cicero, Berwyn, etc....

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I was referring to how the racial segregation of the city has perpetuated the high crime still present in the South and West Sides of the city because it leads to economic segregration. That is a phenomenon that is not seen in cities like New York City and Los Angeles.

j-mac said:

Well, I, over the course of my life have moved to different places. For 20 years I lived just north, up I95 from Baltimore, and moved south to get away from the wealth sucking, crime ridden, over priced liberal hell hole that Martin O'Malley was creating, and I love it....But you just go ahead and keep regarding those in the south as some sort of uneducated rubes, and any other insulting terms you have for them, but just make sure you stay out....We don't want you down here.

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I actually quite like the South. I was just needling you a little bit in fun for calling all of Chicago a blight when you live in a state whose median income is in the lowest quintile.

Spaceman_Spiff said:

There is a difference between the government fudging numbers to paint a rosier picture than what is going on and newspapers not reporting a story. Do you have any credible evidence that it is the former and not the latter?

You still did not answer my question about why the North Side is doing so much better than the South Side despite having the same city government.


I just want to make sure that if you want to have a serious debate that you know what you are talking about.

My comments have nothing to do with approval numbers, but rather tactics you claimed cities do not take because they coddle criminals. I was merely pointing out that McCarthy has pinpointed the troublesome areas and bombarded them with extra police. At the same time they have identified a number of citizens that have a high probability that could be involved in future gang related shootings. Both of these are steps you ought to be applauding.

I was referring to how the racial segregation of the city has perpetuated the high crime still present in the South and West Sides of the city because it leads to economic segregration. That is a phenomenon that is not seen in cities like New York City and Los Angeles.

I actually quite like the South. I was just needling you a little bit in fun for calling all of Chicago a blight when you live in a state whose median income is in the lowest quintile.

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"Credible evidence?" What is that exactly to you? If you are asking for me to continue to dig up stats for you to dismiss because you don't agree with them, or the picture they paint, then no, I am not going to let you define what is, or what isn't "credible" simply because you refuse to accept valid information.

As for the North side of Chicago vs. the South side, and related crime stats, I would say that it has to do with income demographics, and social status of the people that afford to live there. Keep in mind that there are different stats of different crimes that may be more prevalent in the North side vs. the South side....

As for me knowing what I am talking about, I already made you eat your assumption that I had no idea of what Chicago was, or how the make up of that city laid out...Now you want to insult me more by insinuating that I don't know what I am talking about? Screw that. Either you want to have a civilized conversation or you don't. Either way is fine with me, I can have that conversation, or just ignore your ignorant trollings.

On McCarthy, what about what I said or posted made you think that I was not in approval of the job he was doing?

Racial Segregation of the City? What do you mean by that? Let me tell you what happens when liberals start in with that canard...In Baltimore, while O'Malley was Mayor, they wanted to get rid of the High Rise Section 8 cess pools and integrate those receiving housing assistance into better neighborhoods in the city, and even to nearby suburbs like Edgewood....It was a huge failure! All that happened is that they spread the crime out all over, and the values of these better off neighborhoods fell. Now they are mostly boarded up eye sores.

And whether or not the South is in the lower income ratios in the nation, we also have a much lower cost of living...And beautiful friendly people, and landscapes. We aren't packed in like ants.

MaggieD said:

Good for the private schools. At least their kids get an education -- and 40% or more of them don't end up functionally illiterate. If yours is the latest excuse for failure and quest for ever-more dollars, I'm unimpressed. Unless you're saying that poor neighborhoods have more need for special education than the population at large...which I personally don't buy for a New York Minute.

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Not a solution to the issue. So why post this?

Disruptive kids exists. Private school won't teach them. So what's your solution? It costs money to educate the nation's children AS THEY ARE, and some of them are disruptive and so we need special ed classes to deal with that. Money is the solution, as any capitalist can tell you want he's being honest, which is rare.

TurtleDude said:

the progressive solution to everything

spend other peoples' money

disruptive kids who prevent other kids from learning

cannon fodder or ditch diggers

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Focus, focus on the topic and the line of argument. Focus.

American said:

H.R. 1 (107th): No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 (On the Conference Report) -- GovTrack.us

More Dems than Reps in the House voted for it smart guy. Now back to your meme. It had huge bipartisan support. Pssst, you lose.

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NCLB was Bush's crowning glory, a conservative plan that democrats shouldn't have voted for.

So if your argument is Democrats should never support conservative policies by conservative presidents, you're right. But of course that's not our point, is it?

clownboy said:

More extremist nonsense from you.



Source

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The funny thing is, you think this is an argument against what I said.

The issue is where and how we spend it. We spend it on half-baked conservative claptrap like NCLB. A total waste of money.

Any teacher will tell you (and I'm married to one), disruptive kids are a significant impediment to learning, and by the time the due process goes through the works, they can destroy an entire semester of teaching. So we need a swift system to take disruptive kids and not blame them or punish them, but put them in special ed classes that help teach them and allows the other kids to learns. And that take MONEY and lots of it. Principals don't want to send kids to special ed since it's expensive and affects the budget, so they do it reluctantly.

But I understand your ignorance of REAL teaching issues and real solutions. You're a conservative and can only deal in talking points and delusions.

head of joaquin said:

Not a solution to the issue. So why post this?

Disruptive kids exists. Private school won't teach them. So what's your solution? It costs money to educate the nation's children AS THEY ARE, and some of them are disruptive and so we need special ed classes to deal with that. Money is the solution, as any capitalist can tell you want he's being honest, which is rare.

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• Allow vouchers so that the ones who want an education? Those who are trying to learn? Have an actual shot at a decent education.
• Get rid of disruptive students at 16. Violent? You're done. Bullying? You're done. Drugs? You're done. Three strikes, out you go. If we got rid of those children who stand in the way of others' education? We wouldn't need more money. We'd have that money to spend on real, honest-to-goodness special education for those who want it.

Combine this approach with rewarding parents for mentoring their kids -- or students for improved grades -- and I believe things would change. As it is, we're doing the same damned things over and over again and expecting a different result. And we know what that means.

As it is now, we are failing generations.

Dr. Chuckles said:

Statistically, there are measurable differences between African Americans, whites, Asians and Latinos. There are even measurable differences within the black community, african immigrants, and a further breakdown of where those African immigrants hail from. For example, Nigerians and Kenyans form some of the best performing immigrants groups in both education and earnings

African americans on the ther hand have a high incident of single mothers, crime, stds, and various other issues.


Also, I really wish I could find the link, but an interview with a researcher on the news hour, some years ago, was discussing the achievement gap in general education between african americans and whites. The point of interest was various studies measuring the gap in relation to things like income, and pointed out that even when correcting for education and earnings, white students still significantly out performed their african american counter parts. And that we only see a leveling of this when we look at African american children adopted into white families.

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These statistics are probably reliable, but as to causation, the conclusion that it's a "culture" of anything is unwarranted. It's probably a lot of things: history, location, poverty, crime, neglect by government. Educational achievement, and failure, like most social phenomena, are complex.

I would be very dubious about blaming the culture of black families given the host of factors that assault blacks in this country.

head of joaquin said:

Not a solution to the issue. So why post this?

Disruptive kids exists. Private school won't teach them. So what's your solution? It costs money to educate the nation's children AS THEY ARE, and some of them are disruptive and so we need special ed classes to deal with that. Money is the solution, as any capitalist can tell you want he's being honest, which is rare.

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While I loath the idea of dismantling the public school system, I do support a voucher program and charter schools as something that serves a quick fix. Being that I hate to think that kids who actually want a chance have no option besides staying in a school that can't even serve their basic needs.

A big step though would be removing the relationship between local property taxes and schools. In the long run it does serve to only help perpetuate the poverty cycle and doesn't serve anyone's longterm interests.

head of joaquin said:

These statistics are probably reliable, but as to causation, the conclusion that it's a "culture" of anything is unwarranted. It's probably a lot of things: history, location, poverty, crime, neglect by government. Educational achievement, and failure, like most social phenomena, are complex.

I would be very dubious about blaming the culture of black families given the host of factors that assault blacks in this country.

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One of the most impressionable things I remember from my school was the total lack of participation from African american parents. In all aspects of their children's education. Only two black families were really visible within the community, and they were both ones with legacies as community leaders and civil rights activists. Interestingly enough, they were also the only families that were represented in the AP and gifted programs, as well

And as I said, it's nothing you won't notice in poor white neighborhoods where there is a long legacy of poverty and crime. They just make up a smaller percentage of the larger group

Take for example some other statistics mentioned by that researcher: african americans were less likely to read to their children and spend time helping with their homework

head of joaquin said:

The funny thing is, you think this is an argument against what I said.

The issue is where and how we spend it. We spend it on half-baked conservative claptrap like NCLB. A total waste of money.

Any teacher will tell you (and I'm married to one), disruptive kids are a significant impediment to learning, and by the time the due process goes through the works, they can destroy an entire semester of teaching. So we need a swift system to take disruptive kids and not blame them or punish them, but put them in special ed classes that help teach them and allows the other kids to learns. And that take MONEY and lots of it. Principals don't want to send kids to special ed since it's expensive and affects the budget, so they do it reluctantly.

But I understand your ignorance of REAL teaching issues and real solutions. You're a conservative and can only deal in talking points and delusions.

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Then you should speak to her more often and strive to understand what she's telling you. NCLB has NOTHING to do with disruptive students or special ed. And disruptive students are not necessarily special ed students. Many aren't disruptive at all. I WAS a special education teacher. The goal was almost always to get the student to a place where they could be mainstreamed.

Each state has it's own categories of special ed students. Some, like those I worked with were of average or above intelligence but at least two grade levels behind their fellows. The reasons for this were all over the map and require a degreee of individualization that isn't necessary, or affordable, for mainstream.

The problem with disruptive students for teachers and admins is that their ability to deal with such behavior has been severely limited to the ridiculous. The policies that hamstring teachers and admins in this regard are not coming from conservatives, but liberals.

Dr. Chuckles said:

While I loath the idea of dismantling the public school system, I do support a voucher program and charter schools as something that serves a quick fix. Being that I hate to think that kids who actually want a chance have no option besides staying in a school that can't even serve their basic needs.

A big step though would be removing the relationship between local property taxes and schools. In the long run it does serve to only help perpetuate the poverty cycle and doesn't serve anyone's longterm interests.

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Vouchers are just ghettoize those who don't have enough money, even with vouchers, to buy into the private system.

Besides, public education isn't not only a necessity, it is the single most important factor in America's economic success. While Europe clung to a private school system throughout the 19th and early 20th century, the US had public schools early on, generated a literate, productive population that helped make the US economy the largest on the planet. Private schools are a failed model, as Europe learned.

clownboy said:

Then you should speak to her more often and strive to understand what she's telling you. NCLB has NOTHING to do with disruptive students or special ed. And disruptive students are not necessarily special ed students. Many aren't disruptive at all. I WAS a special education teacher. The goal was almost always to get the student to a place where they could be mainstreamed.

Each state has it's own categories of special ed students. Some, like those I worked with were of average or above intelligence but at least two grade levels behind their fellows. The reasons for this were all over the map and require a degreee of individualization that isn't necessary, or affordable, for mainstream.

The problem with disruptive students for teachers and admins is that their ability to deal with such behavior has been severely limited to the ridiculous. The policies that hamstring teachers and admins in this regard are not coming from conservatives, but liberals.

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Focus.

NCLB is a failed model. That's problem number one. The model, cooked up by NASA scientists (I kid you not!) has nothing to do with how real kids learn.

Dealing with disruptive kids is problem number two. We have to have a due process and can't just take kids and shuffle them off to special ed. Nor can we keep disruptive kids in classrooms and expect others to learn. So we need a real commitment to special ed for those kids -- not to blame or scapegoat - but to learn. And that takes money. Lots of it. Anybody who says otherwise is just being adolescent.

Finally, we need huge investments in school infrastructure in poor areas.

Bottomline: we need a model of education based on how kids actually learn (not rightwing claptrap), and lots of money to pay for safe, new schools.

head of joaquin said:

Vouchers are just ghettoize those who don't have enough money, even with vouchers, to buy into the private system.

Besides, public education isn't not only a necessity, it is the single most important factor in America's economic success. While Europe clung to a private school system throughout the 19th and early 20th century, the US had public schools early on, generated a literate, productive population that helped make the US economy the largest on the planet. Private schools are a failed model, as Europe learned.

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as I said, I see them more as an emergency stop gap for kids wanting to escape the trappings of their local school district, not some real long term solution. Let's face it, fixing the school system is going to take time and rather not see kids who are interested in education be held back by the limitations of their community until that happens

j-mac said:

In case you haven't noticed evidence, and discussion has proceeded without your nonsense....Night now. :2wave:

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Yes, I see you are still running away. Changing the subject when you get your ass kicked is not uncommon for some people. You don't do it particularly well though.

head of joaquin said:

Focus, focus on the topic and the line of argument. Focus.

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I really don't need lectures from you. and it was responsive to the post in question

Dr. Chuckles said:

One of the most impressionable things I remember from my school was the total lack of participation from African american parents. In all aspects of their children's education. Only two black families were really visible within the community, and they were both ones with legacies as community leaders and civil rights activists. Interestingly enough, they were also the only families that were represented in the AP and gifted programs, as well

And as I said, it's nothing you won't notice in poor white neighborhoods where there is a long legacy of poverty and crime. They just make up a smaller percentage of the larger group

Take for example some other statistics mentioned by that researcher: african americans were less likely to read to their children and spend time helping with their homework

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I bet this is true. But it's not a culture so much as a sociological state. I bet rich black parents read to their kids as much as rich white parents. They have the time to do so. Not to mention the money to buy books.

TurtleDude said:

I really don't need lectures from you. and it was responsive to the post in question

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Actually you do, and no, it wasn't.

Dr. Chuckles said:

as I said, I see them more as an emergency stop gap for kids wanting to escape the trappings of their local school district, not some real long term solution. Let's face it, fixing the school system is going to take time and rather not see kids who are interested in education be held back by the limitations of their community until that happens

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Leadership, real leadership can do amazing things in a short time. A truly progressive president who makes education his top priority and is honest about the cost could do wonders.

head of joaquin said:

Actually you do, and no, it wasn't.

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well in order for me to "need that" you would have to demonstrate you are better educated than I am on the subject. and such evidence is scarcer than rocking horse crap.

and yes it was responsive. The argument I responded to was over a dearth of money.

head of joaquin said:

I bet this is true. But it's not a culture so much as a sociological state. I bet rich black parents read to their kids as much as rich white parents. They have the time to do so. Not to mention the money to buy books.

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What I am saying is that this Socioeconomic state, and it's almost guaranteed continence in the past, has lead to the development of shared behaviors and ideas that help perpetuate it.

Dr. Chuckles said:

What I am saying is that this Socioeconomic state, it's almost guaranteed continence in the past, has lead to the development of shared behaviors and ideas that help perpetuate it.

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It probably has, but it seems to me the first step is to change the socioeconomic state, not the behaviors. Money changes everything. Set up a system where people can get decent jobs and move up in life, and their views and habits change.

There will always be Beverly Hillbillies. But history in general shows that give people a stake in a society and they act differently.