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Thread: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

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    Re: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Statistically, there are measurable differences between African Americans, whites, Asians and Latinos. There are even measurable differences within the black community, african immigrants, and a further breakdown of where those African immigrants hail from. For example, Nigerians and Kenyans form some of the best performing immigrants groups in both education and earnings

    African americans on the ther hand have a high incident of single mothers, crime, stds, and various other issues.


    Also, I really wish I could find the link, but an interview with a researcher on the news hour, some years ago, was discussing the achievement gap in general education between african americans and whites. The point of interest was various studies measuring the gap in relation to things like income, and pointed out that even when correcting for education and earnings, white students still significantly out performed their african american counter parts. And that we only see a leveling of this when we look at African american children adopted into white families.
    These statistics are probably reliable, but as to causation, the conclusion that it's a "culture" of anything is unwarranted. It's probably a lot of things: history, location, poverty, crime, neglect by government. Educational achievement, and failure, like most social phenomena, are complex.

    I would be very dubious about blaming the culture of black families given the host of factors that assault blacks in this country.

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    Re: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Not a solution to the issue. So why post this?

    Disruptive kids exists. Private school won't teach them. So what's your solution? It costs money to educate the nation's children AS THEY ARE, and some of them are disruptive and so we need special ed classes to deal with that. Money is the solution, as any capitalist can tell you want he's being honest, which is rare.

    While I loath the idea of dismantling the public school system, I do support a voucher program and charter schools as something that serves a quick fix. Being that I hate to think that kids who actually want a chance have no option besides staying in a school that can't even serve their basic needs.

    A big step though would be removing the relationship between local property taxes and schools. In the long run it does serve to only help perpetuate the poverty cycle and doesn't serve anyone's longterm interests.

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    Re: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    These statistics are probably reliable, but as to causation, the conclusion that it's a "culture" of anything is unwarranted. It's probably a lot of things: history, location, poverty, crime, neglect by government. Educational achievement, and failure, like most social phenomena, are complex.

    I would be very dubious about blaming the culture of black families given the host of factors that assault blacks in this country.
    One of the most impressionable things I remember from my school was the total lack of participation from African american parents. In all aspects of their children's education. Only two black families were really visible within the community, and they were both ones with legacies as community leaders and civil rights activists. Interestingly enough, they were also the only families that were represented in the AP and gifted programs, as well

    And as I said, it's nothing you won't notice in poor white neighborhoods where there is a long legacy of poverty and crime. They just make up a smaller percentage of the larger group

    Take for example some other statistics mentioned by that researcher: african americans were less likely to read to their children and spend time helping with their homework

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    Re: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    The funny thing is, you think this is an argument against what I said.

    The issue is where and how we spend it. We spend it on half-baked conservative claptrap like NCLB. A total waste of money.

    Any teacher will tell you (and I'm married to one), disruptive kids are a significant impediment to learning, and by the time the due process goes through the works, they can destroy an entire semester of teaching. So we need a swift system to take disruptive kids and not blame them or punish them, but put them in special ed classes that help teach them and allows the other kids to learns. And that take MONEY and lots of it. Principals don't want to send kids to special ed since it's expensive and affects the budget, so they do it reluctantly.

    But I understand your ignorance of REAL teaching issues and real solutions. You're a conservative and can only deal in talking points and delusions.
    Then you should speak to her more often and strive to understand what she's telling you. NCLB has NOTHING to do with disruptive students or special ed. And disruptive students are not necessarily special ed students. Many aren't disruptive at all. I WAS a special education teacher. The goal was almost always to get the student to a place where they could be mainstreamed.

    Each state has it's own categories of special ed students. Some, like those I worked with were of average or above intelligence but at least two grade levels behind their fellows. The reasons for this were all over the map and require a degreee of individualization that isn't necessary, or affordable, for mainstream.

    The problem with disruptive students for teachers and admins is that their ability to deal with such behavior has been severely limited to the ridiculous. The policies that hamstring teachers and admins in this regard are not coming from conservatives, but liberals.

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    Re: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    While I loath the idea of dismantling the public school system, I do support a voucher program and charter schools as something that serves a quick fix. Being that I hate to think that kids who actually want a chance have no option besides staying in a school that can't even serve their basic needs.

    A big step though would be removing the relationship between local property taxes and schools. In the long run it does serve to only help perpetuate the poverty cycle and doesn't serve anyone's longterm interests.
    Vouchers are just ghettoize those who don't have enough money, even with vouchers, to buy into the private system.

    Besides, public education isn't not only a necessity, it is the single most important factor in America's economic success. While Europe clung to a private school system throughout the 19th and early 20th century, the US had public schools early on, generated a literate, productive population that helped make the US economy the largest on the planet. Private schools are a failed model, as Europe learned.

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    Re: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Then you should speak to her more often and strive to understand what she's telling you. NCLB has NOTHING to do with disruptive students or special ed. And disruptive students are not necessarily special ed students. Many aren't disruptive at all. I WAS a special education teacher. The goal was almost always to get the student to a place where they could be mainstreamed.

    Each state has it's own categories of special ed students. Some, like those I worked with were of average or above intelligence but at least two grade levels behind their fellows. The reasons for this were all over the map and require a degreee of individualization that isn't necessary, or affordable, for mainstream.

    The problem with disruptive students for teachers and admins is that their ability to deal with such behavior has been severely limited to the ridiculous. The policies that hamstring teachers and admins in this regard are not coming from conservatives, but liberals.
    Focus.

    NCLB is a failed model. That's problem number one. The model, cooked up by NASA scientists (I kid you not!) has nothing to do with how real kids learn.

    Dealing with disruptive kids is problem number two. We have to have a due process and can't just take kids and shuffle them off to special ed. Nor can we keep disruptive kids in classrooms and expect others to learn. So we need a real commitment to special ed for those kids -- not to blame or scapegoat - but to learn. And that takes money. Lots of it. Anybody who says otherwise is just being adolescent.

    Finally, we need huge investments in school infrastructure in poor areas.

    Bottomline: we need a model of education based on how kids actually learn (not rightwing claptrap), and lots of money to pay for safe, new schools.

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    Re: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Vouchers are just ghettoize those who don't have enough money, even with vouchers, to buy into the private system.

    Besides, public education isn't not only a necessity, it is the single most important factor in America's economic success. While Europe clung to a private school system throughout the 19th and early 20th century, the US had public schools early on, generated a literate, productive population that helped make the US economy the largest on the planet. Private schools are a failed model, as Europe learned.
    as I said, I see them more as an emergency stop gap for kids wanting to escape the trappings of their local school district, not some real long term solution. Let's face it, fixing the school system is going to take time and rather not see kids who are interested in education be held back by the limitations of their community until that happens

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    Re: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    In case you haven't noticed evidence, and discussion has proceeded without your nonsense....Night now.
    Yes, I see you are still running away. Changing the subject when you get your ass kicked is not uncommon for some people. You don't do it particularly well though.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Focus, focus on the topic and the line of argument. Focus.
    I really don't need lectures from you. and it was responsive to the post in question



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    Re: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    One of the most impressionable things I remember from my school was the total lack of participation from African american parents. In all aspects of their children's education. Only two black families were really visible within the community, and they were both ones with legacies as community leaders and civil rights activists. Interestingly enough, they were also the only families that were represented in the AP and gifted programs, as well

    And as I said, it's nothing you won't notice in poor white neighborhoods where there is a long legacy of poverty and crime. They just make up a smaller percentage of the larger group

    Take for example some other statistics mentioned by that researcher: african americans were less likely to read to their children and spend time helping with their homework
    I bet this is true. But it's not a culture so much as a sociological state. I bet rich black parents read to their kids as much as rich white parents. They have the time to do so. Not to mention the money to buy books.

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