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Thread: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

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    Re: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    Just goes to show you that you can't trust judges either. It is a very bad law.
    Judges are only as trustworthy as the system they serve. The problem is not the judges, but the system that is corrupted by power and money.
    PeteEU

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    Re: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

    The problem is not the judges, but the system that is corrupted by power
    and bullying

    "though classified information was shown to judges in camera, the citing of the precedent in the name of national security cowed judges into submission"

    the guardian above

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    Re: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Judges are only as trustworthy as the system they serve. The problem is not the judges, but the system that is corrupted by power and money.
    I don't understand: trying to prevent attacks means a system is corrupted by power and money? I mean, I guess so, if the power and money have an interest in preventing attacks (which they do), but it's a very odd way to phrase it.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

    I am mildly amused by the number of liberal legislators that opposed such actions during the Bush administration, yet label it justified for Obama.

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    Re: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I don't understand: trying to prevent attacks means a system is corrupted by power and money? I mean, I guess so, if the power and money have an interest in preventing attacks (which they do), but it's a very odd way to phrase it.
    Nice attempt to twist my words... /clap.

    Wanting to prevent attacks does not mean that the law should be twisted and warped and "helped along" by friendly judges.

    And the accusation was that some judges were friendly to the administration and hence allowed this despite it not being the honor of the law or whatever it is called in English.

    The bottom line, this only was made possible because of a system in panic and paranoia after the 9/11 attacks and that this paranoia continues today since Congress approves it every 3 or so months... without much of a public hearing. Blaming the government for using the legal tools at its disposal is just... pathetic. Now had they actually done a Richard Nixon and done something illegal... then there would be a case of attack... but they have not.
    PeteEU

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    Re: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Nice attempt to twist my words... /clap.
    You said the system was corrupted by money and power, did you not? The system is trying to prevent attacks. I didn't need to twist anything...

    The bottom line, this only was made possible because of a system in panic and paranoia after the 9/11 attacks and that this paranoia continues today since Congress approves it every 3 or so months... without much of a public hearing.
    Should there be a referendum on it? I'm reminded of the failure of collective security in the 1930s, writ small: collective security internationally fails because not everyone feels as threatened by certain things and thus doesn't respond equally. Likewise, of course, the average person doesn't feel much responsibility for preventing attacks; they assume someone else will do that for them. That's why that "someone else" should be involved in the decision making regarding that stuff, not the average person.

    Blaming the government for using the legal tools at its disposal is just... pathetic. Now had they actually done a Richard Nixon and done something illegal... then there would be a case of attack... but they have not.
    I agree with you, actually.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

    Congress approves it every 3 or so months
    Lawmakers rebut Obama's data defense - Reid J. Epstein - POLITICO.com

    if you linked it would force you to know what you're talking about

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    Re: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Congress approves it every 3 or so months... without much of a public hearing.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    Lawmakers rebut Obama's data defense - Reid J. Epstein - POLITICO.com

    if you linked it would force you to know what you're talking about
    Uhh...
    Just got this statement from the chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Mike Rogers, and the ranking Democrat, Dutch Ruppersberger. They contend that the NSA's collection programs are legal because Congress knows about them and the courts sanction them, and that they're necessary.
    Congress' intel heads endorse NSA program - The Week

    The sweeping order, issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, requires Verizon to give the NSA metadata on all calls within the U.S. and between the U.S. and foreign countries on an “ongoing, daily basis” for three months.
    Report: NSA Was Granted Order to Snag Millions of Verizon Call Records for 3 Months | Threat Level | Wired.com

    The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.
    The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.
    Source from 2006: USATODAY.com - NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls


    If you cared to link without your obvious bias, it would force you to know what you're talking about.

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    Re: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

    obvious bias
    LOL!

    obama: "violation of the basic civil liberties of the american people," "abuse of power"

    us intelligence official (quoted by isikoff): "unreasonable under the 4th amendment"

    odni: "circumvented the spirit of the law"

    fisa court: "reached the same conclusion"

    Barack Obama Statement on FISA | Firedoglake

    Officials: NSA intercepted emails, phone calls of innocent Americans - NBC

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    Re: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    LOL!

    obama: "violation of the basic civil liberties of the american people," "abuse of power"

    us intelligence official (quoted by isikoff): "unreasonable under the 4th amendment"

    odni: "circumvented the spirit of the law"

    fisa court: "reached the same conclusion"

    Barack Obama Statement on FISA | Firedoglake

    Officials: NSA intercepted emails, phone calls of innocent Americans - NBC


    In response to a question after his speech, Obama defended the programs as essential to combating terrorist threats. "They may identify potential leads with respect to folks who might engage in terrorism," he said.

    He also argued that some have overstated the impact of the programs. "Some of the hype we've been hearing over the past day or so -- nobody has listened to the content of people's phone calls," he said.

    "I welcome this debate and I think it's healthy for our democracy," he continued. "I think it's a sign of maturity, because probably five years ago, six years ago, we might not have been having this debate."

    Obama portrayed the programs as a trade-off between security and civil liberties. "I think it's important to recognize that you can't have 100 percent security, and also then have 100 percent privacy and zero inconvenience. We're going to have to make some choices as a society," he said.
    [url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/obama-nsa_n_3403389.html]
    “My assessment and my team’s assent was they help us prevent terrorist attacks, and the modest encroachments on privacy that are involved … on net, it was worth us doing. Some other folks may have a different assessment of that,” he said.
    http://thehill.com/video/administrat...#ixzz2VjOl5Kj9



    Is this what we're going to do, cherry pick selected parts of articles and randomly select quotes which support our side? Do you have anything of any value to contribute to this discussion, beside your obvious bias?

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