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Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily [W:452]

He wasn't referring to using a legal survellience (sic) program
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what legal surveillance program?

In the midst of revelations that the government has conducted extensive top-secret surveillance operations to collect domestic phone records and internet communications, the Justice Department was due to file a court motion Friday in its effort to keep secret an 86-page court opinion that determined that the government had violated the spirit of federal surveillance laws and engaged in unconstitutional spying.

On at least one occasion the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court held that some collection carried out pursuant to the Section 702 minimization procedures used by the government was unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment.
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Justice Department Fights Release of Secret Court Opinion Finding Unconstitutional Surveillance | Mother Jones
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

DA60 said:
Bush (a terrible POTUS) pushed through the Patriot Act - which is an Act I despise.

That does not excuse Obama's actions ( another terrible POTUS) at all.

You don't agree?

Take a wild guess if I care much?


We are done on this.


Have a nice day.
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LMAO... We? ...you!

...who joins a political debate forum and tries to shut down a debate he's involved in by pouting and walking away?

No, I absolutely agree with you... there just happens to be a whole lot more to the story, the history, and the lessons to be learned. Anyone who can't set partisan BS aside to realize that.. and give a ****, is a tool, literally.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Occam's Razor said:
LMAO... We? ...you!

...who joins a political debate forum and tries to shut down a debate he's involved in by pouting and walking away?

No, I absolutely agree with you... there just happens to be a whole lot more to the story, the history, and the lessons to be learned. Anyone who can't set partisan BS aside to realize that.. and give a ****, is a tool, literally.
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So I am supposed to waste my time debating with someone I do not respect about some rant he is on that I simply don't care about?

Uhhhhhhh....no thanks.


And previous admins made it easier for Obama to do what he did?

Well duh...yes, we know... :rolleyes:

It still in no way excuses his actions.


Now I am (hopefully) done with you on this.

Feel free to talk to yourself ad nauseam.


Nighty night.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

HISTORY MATTERS
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White House: Obama 'welcomes' surveillance debate - Josh Gerstein and Tim Mak - POLITICO.com

Several news outlets reported in 2006 that the Bush administration was compiling a massive database of Americans’ long-distance and international calls.
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NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners - Forbes

“In many ways it’s even more troubling than [Bush era] warrantless wiretapping, in part because the program is purely domestic,” says Alex Abdo, a staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union’s National Security Project.”But this is also an indiscriminate dragnet. Say what you will about warrantless wiretapping, at least it was targeted at agents of Al Qaeda. This includes every customer of Verizon Business Services.”
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from the op:

The unlimited nature of the records being handed over to the NSA is extremely unusual. Fisa court orders typically direct the production of records pertaining to a specific named target who is suspected of being an agent of a terrorist group or foreign state, or a finite set of individually named targets.

These recent events reflect how profoundly the NSA's mission has transformed from an agency exclusively devoted to foreign intelligence gathering, into one that focuses increasingly on domestic communications.
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domestic communications: videos, emails, facebook postings, credit card use...

the product of all digital communications stored and searchable

maybe even sharyl attkisson's computer

welcome to obama's brave new world

surprised?
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

The Prof said:
White House: Obama 'welcomes' surveillance debate - Josh Gerstein and Tim Mak - POLITICO.com



NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners - Forbes



from the op:



domestic communications: videos, emails, facebook postings, credit card use...

the product of all digital communications stored and searchable

maybe even sharyl attkisson's computer

welcome to obama's brave new world

surprised?
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Forgetting the subject being discussed here...you are my kind of debater.

You debate with links...not endless opinions.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

DA60 said:
Forgetting the subject being discussed here...you are my kind of debater.

You debate with links...not endless opinions.
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If links said it all, we have no business talking to each other.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Boo Radley said:
If links said it all, we have no business talking to each other.
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I said 'not endless opinions' - not 'not any opinions'.


However, long-winded debates with people bringing nothing but personal opinions holds little interest for me.
 
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The Prof said:
what legal surveillance program?
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:doh How 'bout the one that's in place right now that is the topic of this thread? Let's not play ignorant here, please.

The Patriot Act and FISA law provide the legal means to do this. You guys are just pissed that the Administration didn't tell you about it. (But psssst....I have a secret for you...that's what SECRET means...don't tell anyone...shhhh!)
 
Prof. James Petras:

"The fundamental reason for the conversion of the state into a gigantic spy apparatus is the nature of deeply destructive domestic and foreign policies which the government has so forcefully pursued. The vast expansion of the police state apparatus is not a response to the terror attack of 9/11. The geometrical growth of spies, secret police budgets, and the vast intrusion into all citizen communications coincides with the wars across the globe. The decisions to militarize US global policy requires vast budgetary re-allocation , slashing social spending to fund empire-building; shredding public health and social security to bailout Wall Street. These are policies which greatly enhance profits for bankers and corporations while imposing regressive taxes on wage and salaried workers

[...]

"The domestic spy apparatus operates with impunity because of its network of powerful domestic and overseas allies. The entire bi-partisan Congressional leadership is privy to and complicit with its operations. Related branches of government, like the Internal Revenue Service, cooperate in providing information and pursuing targeted political groups and individuals. Israel is a key overseas ally of the National Security Agency, as has been documented in the Israeli press (Haaretz, June 8, 2013). Two Israeli high tech firms (Verint and Narus) with ties to the Israeli secret police (MOSSAD), have provided the spy software for the NSA and this, of course, has opened a window for Israeli spying in the US against Americans opposed to the Zionist state. The writer and critic, Steve Lendman points out that Israeli spymasters via their software “front companies” have long had the ability to ‘steal proprietary commercial and industrial data” with impunity. Because of the power and influence of the Presidents of the 52 Major American Jewish organizations, Justice Department officials have ordered dozens of Israeli espionage cases to be dropped. The tight Israeli ties to the US spy apparatus serves to prevent deeper scrutiny into its operation and political goals — at a very high price in terms of the security of US citizens. In recent years two incidents stand out: Israeli security ‘experts’ were contracted to advise the Pennsylvania Department of Homeland Security in their investigation and ‘Stasi-like’ repression of government critics and environmental activists (compared to ‘al Queda terrorists’ by the Israelis) – the discovery of which forced the resignation of OHS Director James Powers in 2010. In 2003, New Jersey governor, Jim McGreevy appointed his lover, an Israeli government operative and former IDF officer, to head that state’s ‘Homeland Security Department and later resigned, denouncing the Israeli, Golan Cipel, for blackmail in late 2004. These examples are a small sample illustrating the depth and scope of Israeli police state tactics intersecting in US domestic repression."


- See more at: The Deeper Meaning of Mass Spying in America | Dissident Voice
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

jmotivator said:
This isn't wiretapping.
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First off, wiretapping is only one issue regarding the patriot act and it's consequences, why narrow it to that?

Second... what isn't wiretapping?
 
Objective Voice said:
:doh How 'bout the one that's in place right now that is the topic of this thread? Let's not play ignorant here, please.

The Patriot Act and FISA law provide the legal means to do this. You guys are just pissed that the Administration didn't tell you about it. (But psssst....I have a secret for you...that's what SECRET means...don't tell anyone...shhhh!)
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Very well said.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

DA60 said:
I said 'not endless opinions' - not 'not any opinions'.


However, long-winded debates with people bringing nothing but personal opinions holds little interest for me.
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Most of us know the facts. There is really little new on this. Once that is done, it is about our opinions on what we know.
 
Objective Voice said:
But there were warrants issued legally do you agree...secret or otherwise? Therefore, you can't say that the NSA broke the law just because the public wasn't aware that the surveillence program was in affect. This is different from the WARRANTLESS wiretaps of Nixon or the WARRANTLESS cellphone surveillences of GWB.
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I'm quite sure that there are no warrants at all involved in PRISM.

There were some rubberstamp FISA warrants involved in other related controversies, but not with PRISM.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Occam's Razor said:
No problem.

Yes or No, does that change the reality that had Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft not pushed through the Patriot Act and set up the first data collection centers, Obama would not have been able to use it in the manner he did?

Yes or No, were you aware that before they were for the Patriot Act, the republicans were dead set against it?
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Ain't it amazing, what a little anthrax will do? ;)
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

DA60 said:
I am not pretending anything.

What Obama authorized was wrong.

If GWB did as well, he was wrong as well.
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You are pretending that there's some kind of "if" about it. There is none


But that, imo, in NO WAY excuses Obama's actions.
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Your focus on Obama, even though both parties and all three branches of govt. are complicit in this, demonstrates that Boo's speculation that your concern was motivated by hostility to a democratic president was on point.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Henry David said:
Ain't it amazing, what a little anthrax will do? ;)
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Exactly. Fear, the greatest motivator.

The problem in '95 was that folks had time to read the bill, debate it, report on it, and there was a public outcry. The republicans were ready to pick up the fumble and run it to the constitutional goal line for big points. However, they weren't opposed to it on constitutional grounds, they just wanted to keep Clinton from using it against their party. Once in power, along comes the patriot act, which mirrors Clinton's act and they rectify their mistake of the past... giving anyone time to read or debate the bill.
 
The Prof said:
LOL!

tell it to david corn

and the fisa judge ("unreasonable under the fourth amendment")

and the nyt

NYT: Obama admin 'has lost all credibility'
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Oh, that's just great...use an old NYTimes article that has been edited from "lost all credibility" (President Obama’s Dragnet) to "lost all credibility on this issue" (Was Change in Obama Editorial a 'Softening' of The Times's Position? | The Public Editor - NYTimes.com). Nice try though, but only the uninformed and/or partisan hacks would buy the absurdity you're peddling. (Of course, I suppose in all the anti-Obama circles he never had credibility in their eyes (which includes yourself) anyway. No love lost...)

Sidenote: Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home


A recent briefing by senior intelligence officials on surveillance programs failed to attract even half of the Senate, showing the lack of enthusiasm in Congress for learning about classified security programs. [WATCH VIDEO]

Many senators elected to leave Washington early Thursday afternoon instead of attending a briefing with James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, Keith Alexander, the head of the National Security Agency (NSA), and other officials.
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Interesting...

For this to have been such a big civil liberties SNAFU where "all of Congress wasn't informed" about the surveillance program, it's mighty interesting that half of the U.S. Senate skips out on the briefing. Kinda tells you what's really important to these people - collecting a paycheck and going on vacation as quickly as possible.

Read more: http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...-snooping-to-catch-flights-home#ixzz2WJ40jxmi
 
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Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Occam's Razor said:
No, it was opened in the Clinton years by no other than.... Joe Biden. In the name of protecting us against terrorists.

That's right, Clinton and Biden drafted nearly identical legislation to the Patriot Act back in 1995...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-constitution/163672-real-history-domestic-spying.html
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Not based-on the articles I have read and nothing you have shown me proves that Clinton okayed warrantless wiretapping within the United States. I am talking about warrantless wiretapping, and the Bush administration were caught doing it before it became law (The Patriot Act, to be exact).

October 4: President George W. Bush secretly authorizes the NSA to track suspected terrorists by monitoring domestic communications without a warrant. The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Actprohibits the government from eavesdropping inside the United States without first getting a warrant from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, also known as the FISA court.
October 26: Bush signs the Patriot Act. The law expands the government's electronic surveillance powers. "The existing law was written in the era of rotary telephones. This new law that I sign today will allow surveillance of all communications used by terrorists, including emails, the internet, and cellphones," Bush declares.
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The Domestic Surveillance Boom, From Bush to Obama | Mother Jones
NSA warrantless surveillance (2001
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Occam's Razor said:
First off, wiretapping is only one issue regarding the patriot act and it's consequences, why narrow it to that?

Second... what isn't wiretapping?
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No.

It's warrantless wiretapping.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Middleground said:
Not based-on the articles I have read and nothing you have shown me proves that Clinton okayed warrantless wiretapping within the United States. I am talking about warrantless wiretapping, and the Bush administration were caught doing it before it became law (The Patriot Act, to be exact).



The Domestic Surveillance Boom, From Bush to Obama | Mother Jones
NSA warrantless surveillance (2001
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He didn't get the chance, the republicans forced it to be stripped from the bill before it passed. But he wanted it, why do you suppose that is?

My point is, it's not a party issue. It's not a "who's in power now" issue. The Patriot Act opened the door... Biden wrote the first draft of the Patriot Act... initially including warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detentions, etc.

It was never my intention to "prove" that Clinton performed such acts. Merely to point out the boundless myopia on both sides of this issue.
 
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