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Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily [W:452]

Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

This is bigger than Obama or Bush, they did not concoct this by their lonesome, this is an ongoing effort orchestrated by our intelligence services with vast support in those circles.

This is a bipartisan issue and it is serious because it paves the way to this kind of practice being standard and accepted. First its used for "national security", next it may be used for drug dealers, serious crimes, once that is normalized it will naturally be used for everything and the people will just expect it. I don't think that is necessarily a slippery slope fallacy because the leaps are pragmatic, the only difference is national security versus domestic security, its all under the veil of "keeping us safe".
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Here's an interesting take on the whole thing.

Phone Record Gathering Story Blown Out of Proportion | National Review Online

Here is what they don’t tell you. Telephone record information (e.g., the numbers dialed and duration of calls) is not and has never been protected by the Fourth Amendment. The Supreme Court held as much in its 1979 Smith v. Maryland decision. Understand: the phone record information at issue here is very different from the content of telephone conversations. Because the latter involve higher privacy expectations, they are heavily regulated under not only the Fourth Amendment but both Title III of the federal penal code and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Under these laws, the government is not permitted to access communications content absent court authorization based on probable cause either that a crime has been committed or that the surveillance target is an agent of a foreign power (such as a terrorist organization or a hostile government).
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

So one wonders what they do with that information? Flag customers who make call to certain countries? It has to be something like that. ??

I imagine it's something like that. Probably some sort of statistical analysis looking for patterns, etc
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Since the court order was just issued in April, I don't see how this can be considered old news. Not surprised Bush would be blamed though. :rofl

This wasn't the first time a court order like this one has been issued. The NSA has been collecting similar evidence for years.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Can't they read your emails and text messages and IP address, google searches, etc. even without warrants and such? Phone calls are just a tiny portion of all the stuff they have access to, it's criminal.

And you know despite what they say, the big social media firms are OK with this, because they are basically mining your data for advertising dollars. If federal law were much stricter on such privacy, how would they make billions on all your social media behaviors? Google isn't evil, but then they give the data to the government...evil by association?

Some countries in Europe have far better privacy restrictions on government, and I'm disappointed we haven't been outraged enough to pursue such legislation. I mean, they can't keep your gun records, but oh boy they can keep the other 99.9% of your life.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily


Their take is correct, but the assumption that the story is blown out of proportion isn't. In fact it's yet another huge warning sign that we absolutely need a privacy amendment to the constitution.

At issue here is not the FISA warrant, but the overly broad scope of it.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Where was your outrage during the Bush years?

jan 28, 2008:

No one should get a free pass to violate the basic civil liberties of the American people – not the President of the United States, and not the telecommunications companies that fell in line with his warrantless surveillance program. We have to make clear the lines that cannot be crossed.

That is why I am co-sponsoring Senator Dodd’s amendment to remove the immunity provision. Secrecy must not trump accountability. We must show our citizens – and set an example to the world – that laws cannot be ignored when it is inconvenient.

A grassroots movement of Americans has pushed this issue to the forefront. You have come together across this country. You have called upon our leaders to adhere to the Constitution. You have sent a message to the halls of power that the American people will not permit the abuse of power – and demanded that we reclaim our core values by restoring the rule of law.

It’s time for Washington to hear your voices, and to act. I share your commitment to this cause, and will stand with you in the fights to come. And when I am President, the American people will once again be able to trust that their government will stand for justice, and will defend the liberties that we hold so dear as vigorously as we defend our security.

Barack Obama Statement on Surveillance | Firedoglake
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

So one wonders what they do with that information? Flag customers who make call to certain countries? It has to be something like that. ??

They're not going to tell you because of national security and all, but I can make a guess.

If you have a list of who called who, then you could compile it into a large graph like data base. Think how facebook works with their graph search, it would be kind of like that. You could use this to figure out who's in what network, and how closely two people are connected. Then if someone is flagged for terrorism, you have a good idea of who else you might want to look into, how far their cell could extend, and if that cell is in contact with other cells.

Also, I'd probably put in a disposable phone number detector. Criminals and terrorists cycle through disposable phones. However, they're unlikely to all change numbers at the same time. If you know which phones are disposable, you could essentially track the terrorist by the numbers they're calling even if the number they use changes.

I'm by no means in support of all of this surveillance and security, mostly because I think it's a waste of time and money. I'm disappointed that Obama didn't dismantle it. HOWEVER, (and this is to posters in general, not you) you can't complain about this and then complain that the government isn' t doing enough to stop terrorism. THIS is part of what the government is doing. It's a cut and dry choice. If you don't want the government gathering this data then you have to accept a higher risk of terrorist attacks.

I don't like it, but we as a people had a number of elections where we said that we were super afraid of guys from the middle east, and that we were willing to give up all sorts of rights so that the government would protect us. We voted that way in 2002, 2004, and 2006. Elections have consequences.

So now what's the alternative? If conservatives want to roll back these programs then they have my full attention. However, everything I've read tells me that it's just more knee-jerk Obama hating. Obama was incompetent because he didn't stop Boston and he's corrupt because he allowed a program that's probably stopped other attacks.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

There is a warrant

For every person using Verizon, yeah, that's a good warrant. NOT.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

For every person using Verizon, yeah, that's a good warrant. NOT.

There is still a warrant.

And lets not forget...

ECHELON - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is so far from new... that it is funny that it is being used to attack Obama, when it has been going on since forever.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

For every person using Verizon, yeah, that's a good warrant. NOT.

Good or bad is opinion

The *fact* remains that there is nothing illegal about it, and it was dishonest for Bronson to claim that this somehow contradicts Obama's promise to stop *warrantless* wiretaps.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily | World news | The Guardian

The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to gie the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.

The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulkregardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.

The unlimited nature of the records being handed over to the NSA is extremely unusual. Fisa court orders typically direct the production of records pertaining to a specific named target who is suspected of being an agent of a terrorist group or foreign state, or a finite set of individually named targets.

The court order expressly bars Verizon from disclosing to the public either the existence of the FBI's request for its customers' records, or the court order itself.

While the order itself does not include either the contents of messages or the personal information of the subscriber of any particular cell number, its collection would allow the NSA to build easily a comprehensive picture of who any individual contacted, how and when, and possibly from where, retrospectively.

It is not known whether Verizon is the only cell-phone provider to be targeted with such an order, although previous reporting has suggested the NSA has collected cell records from all major mobile networks. It is also unclear from the leaked document whether the three-month order was a one-off, or the latest in a series of similar orders.

The court order appears to explain the numerous cryptic public warnings by two US senators, Ron Wyden and Mark Udall, about the scope of the Obama administration's surveillance activities.

For roughly two years, the two Democrats have been stridently advising the public that the US government is relying on "secret legal interpretations" to claim surveillance powers so broad that the American public would be "stunned" to learn of the kind of domestic spying being conducted.

In a letter to attorney general Eric Holder last year, they argued that "there is now a significant gap between what most Americans think the law allows and what the government secretly claims the law allows."

These recent events reflect how profoundly the NSA's mission has transformed from an agency exclusively devoted to foreign intelligence gathering, into one that focuses increasingly on domestic communications.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Good or bad is opinion

The *fact* remains that there is nothing illegal about it, and it was dishonest for Bronson to claim that this somehow contradicts Obama's promise to stop *warrantless* wiretaps.

No, I think it's a bad warrant in view of the law. And Bronson has it correct, this blanket warrant violates the spirit of everthing Obama promised. Everything he said applies here.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Good or bad is opinion

The *fact* remains that there is nothing illegal about it, and it was dishonest for Bronson to claim that this somehow contradicts Obama's promise to stop *warrantless* wiretaps.

The 4th amendment requires probable cause before a warrant can be issued. A warrant issued without probable cause would, presumably, be invalid and the subsequent search illegal. In this case it appears that the government has decided that normal communication between US citizens constitutes sufficient probable cause to issue a warrant and conduct a search. Maybe it's just me but I don't see any way in hell that the case for probable cause in this matter has been made.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

funny, just last week, in an attempt to get away from the irs, et al, the naval contemplating president pretty much (he's always so ambiguous) declared the war on terror over

President Obama debates himself - Glenn Thrush - POLITICO.com

he also (in, however, his characteristically implicit rather than explicit way) announced we won

hooray!
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

The 4th amendment requires probable cause before a warrant can be issued. A warrant issued without probable cause would, presumably, be invalid and the subsequent search illegal. In this case it appears that the government has decided that normal communication between US citizens constitutes sufficient probable cause to issue a warrant and conduct a search. Maybe it's just me but I don't see any way in hell that the case for probable cause in this matter has been made.

Doesn't Smith v. Maryland render the 4th Amendment argument invalid in this instance?
Smith v. Maryland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

The 4th amendment requires probable cause before a warrant can be issued. A warrant issued without probable cause would, presumably, be invalid and the subsequent search illegal. In this case it appears that the government has decided that normal communication between US citizens constitutes sufficient probable cause to issue a warrant and conduct a search. Maybe it's just me but I don't see any way in hell that the case for probable cause in this matter has been made.

There is probable cause, as demonstrated by the fact that a warrant was issued.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

What's to stop anyone from installing an app to encrypt calls?
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

When was this order issued ?

The order to spy on the Soviets and people involved on the left of politics world wide? Well no one really knows since it is a big secret, but since the whole cold war started after WW2.. then about that time.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

you've been talking before you finished your reading again

how much time did you spend researching this one, 90 seconds?

why are you so lazy?

your opinion is worthless

The National Security Agency has long justified its spying powers by arguing that its charter allows surveillance on those outside of the United States, while avoiding intrusions into the private communications of American citizens. But the latest revelation of the extent of the NSA’s surveillance shows that it has focused specifically on Americans, to the degree that its data collection has in at least one major spying incident explicitly excluded those outside the United States.

In a top secret order obtained by the Guardian news published Wednesday evening, the FBI on the NSA’s behalf demanded that Verizon turn over all metadata for phone records originating in the United States for the three months beginning in late April and ending on the 19th of July.

Aside from the sheer scope of that surveillance order, reminiscent of the warrantless wiretapping scandal under the Bush administration, the other shocking aspect of the order its target: The order specifically states that only data regarding calls originating in America are to be handed over, not those between foreigners.

“It is hereby ordered that [Verizon Business Network Services'] Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency…all call detail records or ‘telephony metadata’ created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls,” the Guardian’s copy of the order reads. “This Order does not require Verizon to include telephony metadata for communications wholly originating and terminating in foreign countries.”

Though the classified, top secret order comes from the FBI, it clearly states that the data is to be given to the NSA. That means the leaked document may serve as one of the first concrete pieces of evidence that the NSA’s spying goes beyond foreigners to include Americans, despite its charter specifically disallowing surveillance of those within the United States.

In many ways it’s even more troubling than [Bush era] warrantless wiretapping, in part because the program is purely domestic,” says Alex Abdo, a staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union’s National Security Project.”But this is also an indiscriminate dragnet. Say what you will about warrantless wiretapping, at least it was targeted at agents of Al Qaeda. This includes every customer of Verizon Business Services.”

The leaked document, in fact, is labelled as an order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, a body whose powers were created under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 and then broadened after the September 11th, 2001 attacks, with the purpose of intercepting communications between foreign agents and those between enemies abroad and their agents within the U.S. Similarly, the NSA’s charter states that it focuses on interception and analysis of foreign communications, not those within the United States.

In fact, the Verizon order may be just a glimpse of a much larger surveillance program. It’s unclear whether other carriers, not to mention Internet giants like Google, Microsoft and Facebook, have been caught up in similar domestic surveillance, or how long that surveillance has been taking place. But as the Guardian notes, Senators Ron Wyden and Mark Udall have issued cryptic warnings for the last two years that the Obama administration has engaged in widespread surveillance of Americans.

Other phone carriers including AT&T, T-Mobile and Sprint all responded to a congressional inquiry on government surveillance last year, stating that they had turned over hundreds of thousands of users' records to law enforcement agencies, though that inquiry didn’t focus on intelligence agency requests.

In a congressional hearing in March of last year, the NSA’s Director Keith Alexander responded to questions from Georgia Congressman Hank Johnson, who brought up allegations of the NSA’s domestic spying made in a Wired magazine article earlier that month, denying fourteen times that the NSA intercepted Americans’ communications.

“What judicial consent is required for NSA to intercept communications and information involving American citizens?” Johnson asked at the time.

“Within the United States, that would be the FBI lead,” responded Alexander. “If it were a foreign actor in the United States, the FBI would still have to lead. It could work that with NSA or other intelligence agencies as authorized. But to conduct that kind of collection in the United States it would have to go through a court order, and the court would have to authorize it. We’re not authorized to do it, nor do we do it."

NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners - Forbes
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

There is probable cause, as demonstrated by the fact that a warrant was issued.

No, that's not how it works and would only protect the NSA from future civil litigation (they can rightfully assert they had a warrant). The FISA judge in this case must believe there is probable cause, but he can be proven wrong in any court case where info derived from the warrant is used by the prosecution. At that point everything collected under the warrant is no longer available for use by the prosecution. Further the defendents involved can sue civilly at that point.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily


telephone metadata is not simply data about calls.

It is also the constant communication your phone has with the various towers. This is data that allows the government to track your movements via your phone. you don't need to place calls at all to be tracked.

that link is bs
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Here's a breakdown on how our Congress Critters and Senate Snake voted for all this BS FWIW.

Here's Exactly Who to Blame in Congress for Authorizing Government Spying

Your Phone Records

We looked at seven Congressional actions generally and five in particular to assess how the government's power to collect data has evolved. From October 2001 to last December, Congress continually voted to expand or continue the government's power to collect private data, ostensibly to bolster efforts to stop terrorist activity. In addition to the PATRIOT Act, Congress has also renewed provisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA — the law that established the court which issued the Verizon order.
 
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