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Thread: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily [W:452]

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    We all seem to agree that what Obama is doing is wrong, so what are we going to do about it?

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I wasn't aware that W was President in 1991.....? With that said, you do have a point in that we allow things to happen that later become problems then say to ourselves, "what the....?"
    He said Bush, not W. The President in '91 was Bush.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    We all seem to agree that what Obama is doing is wrong, so what are we going to do about it?
    That's a great question. What can we do as individuals? Write/phone/e-mail our elected reps?

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    We all seem to agree that what Obama is doing is wrong, so what are we going to do about it?
    Well, for one, I don't think we all agree.

    Second, "what we're going to do about it" may be the one area where "the last guy" may be important in terms of the notion of precedence. I know there were complaints and issues in legal senses and others regarding what occured with Bush. Knowing how those proceeded and what occured and what was established would be important to know.

    Third, "what we're going to do about it" would largely depend on what your focus is. Is it that this action is bad and needs to be stopped? Is it that laws that ALLOW for these type of actoins to be done are bad and THEY need to be stopped? Is it that you think Obama is bad for doing this and it means he needs to be removed? And, on the latter point, is your desire for that so much that you'd focus on that even if it's likely to fail at the expense of not being able to actually get the former issues resolved?

    I think Rand Paul probalby has the right idea on this in terms of "doing something about it" if anything needs to be done, and that's some legislation attempting to firmly set down a limit on doing such actions.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by StringBean View Post
    About a secret surveillance program we weren't aware of.
    It's been a well known fact that the govt has been spying on us, and it's been known for years, as the links posted prove
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    That's a great question. What can we do as individuals? Write/phone/e-mail our elected reps?
    Why bother with elected reps? Just send something to your mother ... the Government will see it.

    I heard something funny earlier ... they said we all have Obamaphones now.

    Another question I've heard posed yesterday and today ... with all the phone & internet data mining, how come they missed stuff like the Boston Marathon bombing?

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Thanks for the props, but it seems like you're immersed in your own partisanship. You're more focused on calling out liberals than just saying that this NSA situation is a problem. Even further, you're focusing on liberal partisanship when there is plenty of conservative partisanship in the thread too - starting with the literal first post of the thread.
    Correct

    Though I'm sure it was unintentional, but by concentrating on partisanship, Zyphlin has been sucked into the very partisanship that he deplores.

    The fact is, we are where we are because of Congress, the White House, and the Judiciary. All three branches of the govt are complicit in this, and so are both parties.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I am not really sure how I feel about this story...

    When the Patriot act was instituted and this practice was initiated, I defended it with the explanations that the Bush administration gave, in that they weren't listening in to actual conversations of Americans on a day to day basis, but that they were tracking calls made from here, to an overseas known terror figure, or vice versa.

    Many liberals that I know and respect used, turns out quite prophetically at the time, that this power would be abused, and we may not like it when Bush was gone...Crystal Ball? Nah, just something we should have listened to.

    Although I do think that this was/is just an extension of what has been going on for the past 7 years at least, and I am not that quick to listen to how evil this is, set to some horror movie sound track, while the broadcaster in somber voice tells us how the evil Obama is for doing this...

    What does seem to bother me, is that it is coming out that it is not only the meta data involved in your phone records that is being stored because it may be lost as the companies routinely scrub their history's....It is now revealed that the program also includes, your web traffic, your credit card purchases, your e-mail....etc...This is intrusive...Whether it is actually read, looked at, or not, is not the question, the question is do we have a 4th amendment anymore? Where is our right to privacy?

    This is a case where, as I said, I defended it when it started in the Bush administration, I was wrong.
    Thank you! I'm in agreement with you.

    After 9-11 I wanted it to never happen again so I didn't

    bitch about Patriot Act.I felt as tho it wouldn't affect

    me since I don't do terrorism. I was wrong.

    The USA I know doesn't do crap like this!!

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The fact is, we are where we are because of Congress, the White House, and the Judiciary. All three branches of the govt are complicit in this, and so are both parties.
    Absolutely. And again, my issue isn't really partisanship. I expect liberals to not be as vocally upset about this as they were under Bush. I expect conservatives to be more vocally upset about this then it was under Bush. My issue is with either side trying to act like it's only the OTHER side that is acting in that way. It's the nature of tribal relations...people are often going to act a bit different to things when its "their people".

    In this particular instance, Obama is responsible for his administrations own actions, regardless of what people before him have done. At the same time, those that came before him are responsible for putting in place the tools to allow him to do such things. And that continues on back administration to administration to administratoin. I expect Democrats to be more upset about those who put the tools into place and first used them and I expect Republicans to be more upset about the current misuse of the tools. It just irks me when either side feels that kind of mentality is only acceptable for their own side to have.

    For every bitch of "Why aren't the democrats yelling about Obama, they did it when the Republicans were in!" by someone on the right, there was an individual on the right (sometimes the same individual) 10 years ago yelling "It's okay! It's for security, do you want the terrorists to win!". And it's the same on the flip for democrats.

    People by and large treat "Theirs" a bit differently.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Jmac and Penn's posts made me think about this.

    I wrote my Senior Thesis for college on the Patriot Act. One of the focuses of my paper was the notion that these significant infringements upon civil liberties in the name of security have occured numerous times in our countries history, typically corresponding with some kind of MASSIVE event. I basically described things like a balance, with "Freedom" on one side and "Security" on the other. One of these massive events happen and drops into the Security side, clearly pushing things out of balance. Typically, these instances happen at times where the "Freedom" side is a bit heavier than the "security" side, though not always.

    In those instances, the American Public by and large are willing to give up freedom in exchange for security because of the impact of that massive event and a realization that, at that moment, their security is more important to actually be able to use their freedom. So you have things like Patriot, or Internment camps, or journalists being penned up on the bottom of boats sitting in a river.

    As time moves farther and farther from that 0 hour point of the Massive event, the balance slowly begins to relevel itself. We have many checks in this country to somewhat help with the natural rebalancing of things; the press, the court system, our electoral system and the public, various legislative things like sunset clauses, legislation, etc.

    As you see, the "public" is one of those things that help balance it. The farther from an event you get, the less inclined people are to continue with that reduction in freedom in the name of security. It happens for a variety of reasons; distance from the event allows more rational than emotional thinking, fatigue over the various measures that were put in place, more chances of it affecting them in a personal way, and even simple partisanship, to name a few. And so I'm not surprised to see some who previously supported things now being those that oppose it, and while I imagine some and perhaps much is based on partisanship I think some is due to those other factors coming into play.

    Had Kerry won in 2004 and all the NSA stuff still happened in 2006, I think there would've been some people going after him for it (As I said, partisanship is one reason) but I think there'd be a lot fewer than those willing to go after Obama today...because we were still much closer to the trigger event, we didn't have as much time to get fatigued from all the efforts, etc and thus I think there would've been more people still taking the "It's worth it" type of mentality.

    This natural progression is why I've not been massively ruffled about the Patriot Act and some of the things that have been done during Bush, or with Obama, especially in terms of people thinking that either needed to go to jail or be impeached or any such thing. The most troublesome parts are or will be cut out and even the less troublesome ones will slowly go away as the public becomes more and more apt to swing that balance to more Freedom to Security, up until such a point that we have another Massive Event to restart the cycle yet again.

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