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Thread: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily [W:452]

  1. #171
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    “Now that this unconstitutional surveillance effort has been revealed, the government should end it and disclose its full scope, and Congress should initiate a full investigation,” said Michelle Richardson, legislative counsel for the ACLU, in a statement.

    She added: “Since 9/11, the government has increasingly classified and concealed not just facts, but the law itself. Such extreme secrecy is inconsistent with our democratic values of open government and accountability.”
    5 things you need to know about NSA phone tracking - Tim Mak and Eric Engleman - POLITICO.com

    fournier, editor of the elite natl journal and regular msnbc'er: "if anything, things have gotten worse..."

    "obama promised... do you believe him?"

  2. #172
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily


  3. #173
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    I am really tired today
    aren't we all

    this this has been going on for over a decade
    aclu: fisa under bush "at least was targeted at agents of al qaeda"

    (forbes above)

    i'm sorry

  4. #174
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    nyt editorial board (link above, thanks to my friend)

    Within hours of the disclosure that the federal authorities routinely collect data on phone calls Americans make, regardless of whether they have any bearing on a counterterrorism investigation, the Obama administration issued the same platitude it has offered every time President Obama has been caught overreaching in the use of his powers: Terrorists are a real menace and you should just trust us to deal with them because we have internal mechanisms (that we are not going to tell you about) to make sure we do not violate your rights.

    Those reassurances have never been persuasive — whether on secret warrants to scoop up a news agency’s phone records or secret orders to kill an American suspected of terrorism — especially coming from a president who once promised transparency and accountability. The administration has now lost all credibility. Mr. Obama is proving the truism that the executive will use any power it is given and very likely abuse it.

    A senior administration official quoted in The Times offered the lame observation that the information does not include the name of any caller, as though there would be the slightest difficulty in matching numbers to names. He said the information “has been a critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats,” because it allows the government “to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities, particularly people located inside the United States.”

    That is a vital goal, but how is it served by collecting everyone’s call data? The government can easily collect phone records (including the actual content of those calls) on “known or suspected terrorists” without logging every call made. In fact, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was expanded in 2008 for that very purpose. Essentially, the administration is saying that without any individual suspicion of wrongdoing, the government is allowed to know who Americans are calling every time they make a phone call, for how long they talk and from where.

    This sort of tracking can reveal a lot of personal and intimate information about an individual. To casually permit this surveillance — with the American public having no idea that the executive branch is now exercising this power — fundamentally shifts power between the individual and the state, and repudiates constitutional principles governing search, seizure and privacy.

    The defense of this practice offered by Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, who as chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee is supposed to be preventing this sort of overreaching, was absurd. She said today that the authorities need this information in case someone might become a terrorist in the future. But what assurance do we have of that, especially since Ms. Feinstein went on to say that she actually did not know how the data being collected was used?

    That’s no longer good enough. Mr. Obama clearly had no intention of revealing this eavesdropping, just as he would not have acknowledged the killing of Anwar al-Awlaki, an American citizen, had it not been reported in the press. Even then, it took him more than a year and a half to acknowledge the killing, and he is still keeping secret the protocol by which he makes such decisions.

    We are not questioning the legality under the Patriot Act of the court order disclosed by The Guardian. But we strongly object to using that power in this manner. It is the very sort of thing against which Mr. Obama once railed, when he said in 2007 that the Bush administration’s surveillance policy “puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide.”

    Two Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon and Senator Mark Udall of Colorado, have raised warnings about the government’s overbroad interpretation of its surveillance powers. “We believe most Americans would be stunned to learn the details of how these secret court opinions have interpreted Section 215 of the Patriot Act,” they wrote last year in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. “As we see it, there is now a significant gap between what most Americans think the law allows and what the government secretly claims the law allows. This is a problem, because it is impossible to have an informed public debate about what the law should say when the public doesn’t know what its government thinks the law says.”

    This stunning use of the act shows, once again, why it needs to be sharply curtailed if not repealed.
    and not a word about the irs, officials pleading the fifth, others lying to congress...

    no mention of the ap sweep and the rosen co-conspiracy, nor the ignorant (according to him) ag's testimony on the hill that he'd never heard of potential prosecutions which nbc revealed two days later he'd signed off on (may 15 and 17)...

    let alone benghazi, the talking points which torturously took out the truth and left in the lie, until our most transparent president in history promoted the purveyor of that vain video to...

    you guessed it, ms rice will now be heading the very nsa which tracks every phone call in america, so busy compiling the greatest database in the world...

    surprised?

    proud?

  5. #175
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    more transparency, tuesday:

    AP: Obama appointees using secret email accounts - CBS News

    how many secret email accounts?

    that's a secret

    they're all hiding behind the foia firewall

    but we know labor, the epa, hhs...

    we have sebelius, lisa jackson, carney...

    fiercely fighting foia, tho, are dod, doj, the va, hud, hhs, commerce, doa...

    in fact, labor tried to charge ap 1.03 mil to comply with foia---there's a lot of digging to do, lord knows how many emails accounts...

    dept rules, however, got in the way, labor's gotta do its own work

    lisa jackson at the epa went by richard windsor

    why don't you lobby her to 86 the xl?

    The secret email accounts complicate an agency's legal responsibilities to find and turn over emails in response to congressional or internal investigations, civil lawsuits or public records requests because employees assigned to compile such responses would necessarily need to know about the accounts to search them. Secret accounts also drive perceptions that government officials are trying to hide actions or decisions.
    and:

    Courts have consistently set a high bar for the government to withhold public officials' records under the federal privacy rules. A federal judge, Marilyn Hall Patel of California, said in August 2010 that "persons who have placed themselves in the public light" - such as through politics or voluntarily participation in the public arena - have a "significantly diminished privacy interest than others." Her ruling was part of a case in which a journalist sought FBI records, but was denied. "We're talking about an email address, and an email address given to an individual by the government to conduct official business is not private," said Aaron Mackey, a FOIA attorney with the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. He said that's different than, for example, confidential information, such as a Social Security number.
    finally:

    Obama pledged during his first week in office to make government more transparent and open. The nation's signature open-records law, he said in a memo to his Cabinet, would be "administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails."
    are you really surprised?

    spend some time in chicago, you'll understand

  6. #176
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Thanks for posting this.

    Among the Editorial Board's comments:

    Two Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon and Senator Mark Udall of Colorado, have raised warnings about the government’s overbroad interpretation of its surveillance powers. “We believe most Americans would be stunned to learn the details of how these secret court opinions have interpreted Section 215 of the Patriot Act,” they wrote last year in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. “As we see it, there is now a significant gap between what most Americans think the law allows and what the government secretly claims the law allows. This is a problem, because it is impossible to have an informed public debate about what the law should say when the public doesn’t know what its government thinks the law says.”

  7. #177
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    buncha hypocrites:

    Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee blasted the Obama administration in the wake of news that officials secretly obtained records for Verizon phone calls made in the United States, and called for hearings into the program.

    “We believe this type of program is far too broad and is inconsistent with our nation’s founding principles,” said a joint statement from prominent Democrats on the committee, including ranking member Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.). “We cannot defeat terrorism by compromising our commitment to our civil rights and liberties.”

    The letter was also signed by Rep. Jerry Nadler (D-N.Y.), ranking member of the Constitution and Civil Justice Subcommittee, and Rep. Bobby Scott (D-Va.) ranking member of the Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, and Investigations subpanel.

    “We strongly disagree with those who would assert that because this type of program appears to be long standing and Members of Congress may have been briefed, that it is acceptable to us or the Congress,” the group wrote.

    “A classified briefing which does not permit any public discussion does not imply approval or acceptance,” they added.

    Democrats on Thursday fired off most of the criticism against the program.

    Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin said he has been briefed on some of the information generally previously and “of course” he is troubled by it.

    “We’ve been unable to speak to it because it is classified,” Durbin said.

    To say that every American’s records of phone conversations are now open to government scrutiny really goes to beyond that standard,” Durbin said.

    “This type of secret bulk data collection is an outrageous breach of Americans’ privacy. I have had significant concerns about the intelligence community over-collecting information about Americans’ telephone calls, emails, and other records,” Sen. Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.) said in a statement.

    Sen. Mark Udall (D-Colo.) said the report “concerns me.”

    “The administration I think owes it to the American public to comment on what authorities it thinks it has and I’ll leave it there,” he told reporters Thursday.

    Republican leaders were mum early Thursday: House Speaker John Boehner’s office declined to comment and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell didn’t want to talk about it as he came off the Senate floor.

    “Not right now,” McConnell said. “Not right now.”

    Sen. Roy Blunt (R-Mo.) said that he believed President Barack Obama has gone beyond George W. Bush when it comes to using Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act authority.

    “I’ve been a supporter of FISA and the FISA court process but it does seem to me that on all fronts the Obama administration is more expansive and aggressive from drones to phone records than the Bush administration,” Blunt said.
    Key House Democrats want hearings on NSA - Ginger Gibson and Burgess Everett - POLITICO.com

    thank goodness you're not a hypocrite too, there are so many around these days

    you may be ignorant, but you gotta lotta integrity

    great!

  8. #178
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    There is still a warrant.

    And lets not forget...

    ECHELON - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This is so far from new... that it is funny that it is being used to attack Obama, when it has been going on since forever.
    See you people in Europe love your corrupt governments that know every time you take a piss and **** your woman. But Americans aren't use to that sort of thing, but if you knew as much about us as you imply, then you would know this.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  9. #179
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    roger simon's professional leftists and journolisters:

    The outrage over President Barack Obama’s authorization of a nearly limitless federal dive into Americans’ phone records obscures a hiding-in-plain-sight truth about the 44th president many of his supporters have overlooked for years:

    For all his campaign-trail talk of running the “most transparent administration” in U.S history, Obama never promised to reverse the 43rd president’s policies on domestic anti-terrorism surveillance — and he’s been good on his word.
    'Bush's 4th term' - Glenn Thrush - POLITICO.com

    never promised? good on his word?

    the journolisters are jumbled:

    In 2005, then-Sen. Obama spoke out against the Bush-sponsored PATRIOT Act extension on the grounds that FBI agents would have been given wide berth in obtaining personal records on people suspected of terrorist links without having to get their searches approved by a federal judge under the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act.

    This is legislation that puts our own Justice Department above the law,” he said during a much-publicized Senate floor speech at the time.

    “[F]ederal agents [can] conduct any search on any American, no matter how extensive or wide-ranging, without ever going before a judge to prove that the search is necessary. They simply need sign-off from a local FBI official,” he added.

    If someone wants to know why their own government has decided to go on a fishing expedition through every personal record or private document — through library books they’ve read and phone calls they’ve made — this legislation gives people no rights to appeal the need for such a search in a court of law. No judge will hear their plea, no jury will hear their case.”
    who's the hypocrite, harry?

    Obama’s effort to strike what he’s repeatedly called “a balance” between personal liberty and homeland security has exposed what amounts to a split political personality: Candidate Obama often spoke about personal freedom with the passion of a constitutional lawyer — while Commander-in-Chief Obama has embraced and expanded Bush-era surveillance efforts like the 2011 extension of the Patriot Act, which paved the way for a secret court order allowing the gathering of Verizon phone records.

    In an irony now being savored by his conservative critics, Obama administration officials are now relying on Republicans to defend him against charges from liberals and the libertarian right that he’s recklessly prioritized national security over personal liberty.

    Drone strikes. Wiretaps. Gitmo. Renditions. Military commissions. Obama is carrying out Bush’s fourth term, yet he attacked Bush for violating the Constitution,” said Ari Fleischer, George W. Bush’s press secretary.

    “He’s helping keep the nation safe, vindicating President Bush, all while putting a bipartisan stamp on how to fight terror,” Fleischer added.

    But critics in Obama’s own party say the net cast by the order poses a grave threat to free expression and the right Americans have — and Obama has so often championed — to live their lives without Big Brother poking into their affairs.

    “This type of secret bulk data collection is an outrageous breach of Americans’ privacy,” said Sen. Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.) who has repeatedly raised concerns about surveillance overreach by the administration.

    “I have had significant concerns about the intelligence community over-collecting information about Americans’ telephone calls, emails and other records and that is why I voted against the reauthorization of the PATRIOT Act provisions in 2011 and the reauthorization of the FISA Amendments Act just six months ago.”

    “This bulk data collection is being done under interpretations of the law that have been kept secret from the public. Significant FISA court opinions that determine the scope of our laws should be declassified. Can the FBI or the NSA really claim that they need data scooped up on tens of millions of Americans?”

    Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), one of the few Obama allies to vote against the 2011 extension of the PATRIOT Act, said, “The United States should not be accumulating phone records on tens of millions of innocent Americans. That is not what democracy is about. That is not what freedom is about.”

    That tone was strikingly similar to the tone of Obama’s own comments when he was a back-bencher in the upper chamber.
    just a little more, you can do it:

    In fact, several news organizations reported at the time that Obama’s lawyers wanted to add a new provision to include Internet browsing and email records — “electronic communication transactional records” that didn’t include content — to a list of sources the FBI could demand without a judge’s approval.

    The provision was eventually added to the bill.
    msnbc's proud print partners at politico put forth that the president's position has bipartisan support

    but the only republican quoted, after limpwrist lindsey, is patriot act author from WI, who kinda feels like he's been bipartisaned a little too far out on that phone line

    But even Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.), the author of the PATRIOT Act, wasn’t comfortable with the turn things have taken, saying he is “extremely troubled” by a move he called “excessive and un-American.”

    “While I believe the PATRIOT Act appropriately balanced national security concerns and civil rights, I have always worried about potential abuses,” Sensenbrenner said. “The bureau’s broad application for phone records was made under the so-called business records provision of the act. I do not believe the broadly drafted FISA order is consistent with the requirements of the PATRIOT Act.”
    congratulations, comrade, you got EXACTLY what you voted for

    you are incapable of endorsing that which runs so counter to your druthers, being one who talks so much and all...

    oh well

    stay in touch
    Last edited by The Prof; 06-06-13 at 08:04 PM.

  10. #180
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    I never claimed he was the best President ever. I never claimed his Administration was the transparent. I never even intended to make it sound like I was defending Obama. I am against Obama's politics as much as the next guy. I simply want to point out we need to be behind the Administration instead of tearing it down. Obama isn't the enemy, even if you don't like his politics.
    Obama could have stopped this the day he took office. I'm not behind him, I'm tearing him apart for blatant hypocrisy. You should be doing the same.

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