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Thread: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily [W:452]

  1. #161
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    Obama is as bad as Bush for this. He has the choice to use the tool or not. He failed. Bush did too.
    I agree. They both failed. I'm just saying Bush opened the door. I'm not an Obama enthusiast, trust me.
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    is fournier a hypocrite?

    Welcome to the era of Bush-Obama, a 16-year span of U.S. history that will be remembered for an unprecedented erosion of civil liberties and a disregard for transparency. On the war against a tactic—terrorism—and its insidious fallout, the United States could have skipped the 2008 election.

    It made little difference.

    Despite his clear and popular promises to the contrary, President Obama has not shifted the balance between security and freedom to a more natural state—one not blinded by worst fears and tarred by power grabs. If anything, things have gotten worse.

    Killing civilians and U.S. citizens via drone.

    Seizing telephone records at the Associated Press in violation of Justice Department guidelines.

    Accusing a respected Fox News reporter of engaging in a conspiracy to commit treason for doing his job.

    Even the IRS scandal, while not a matter of foreign policy, strikes at the heart of growing concerns among Americans that their privacy is government's playpen.

    And now this: The Guardian newspaper reports that the National Security Agency is collecting telephone records of tens of millions of customers of one of the nation's largest phone companies, Verizon.

    [F]or several reasons the news is chilling.

    Verizon probably isn't the only company coughing up its documents. Odds are incredibly strong that the government is prying into your telephone records today.

    Issued in April, the NSA order "could represent the broadest surveillance order known to have been issued," according to The Washington Post.

    The Bush-Obama White House hates transparency. President George W. Bush and his vice president, Dick Cheney, were justifiably criticized by Democrats (none more successfully so than Obama himself) for their penchant for secrecy. Obama promised that he would run history's most transparent administration. By almost any measure, on domestic and well as foreign policies, Obama has broken that promise.

    It is the lack of transparency that is most galling about the security versus civil liberties debate under Obama, because it shows his lack of faith in the public.

    But he made the [drone] speech under pressure, and reluctantly. It only came amid new revelations about the drone program and the disclosure of newsroom spying (the Guardian may well be in Obama's sights next). Under Bush, the warrantless-wiretap program only stopped after it was publicly disclosed. In that way, the Guardian story is not a surprise, so why didn't Obama long ago acknowledge, explain, and justify such an intrusion into privacy?

    Obama has promised to adjust the drone and leaks investigation policies, essentially acknowledging that his administration had gone too far in the name of security. Do you believe him?
    Welcome to the Bush-Obama White House: They're Spying on Us - NationalJournal.com

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Until you can show that there was no probable cause, there is no reason to believe anything you say concerning the issue.
    Heh, that's fine, don't care if YOU believe me or not. It is hilarious to myself and probably a few others here that you think there was legitimate probable cause to search the records of every verizon customer.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Absolutely agree in terms of the latter.

    In terms of the former...I can see why people thought the type of stretchy logic the Bush Admin used was just that, and I'd say the same here. It's an end around in terms of a warrant, as it's going after information that a company has, but specifically because it basically is an umbrella that covers thousands of individuals that they normally would've had to get individual warrants for.

    Which goes to my previous point in terms of the notion that it's a matter of how one rationalizes where they want to draw their line of "okay" and "not okay"
    I understand, but again so what?

    The only reason they did it with this warrant is to be able use whatever evidence in a US court. Before this, they just rendition people to secret prisons... imo it is an upgrade
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    several obvious differences between the most transparent president in history and george w what's-his-name

    w didn't kill us citizens after consulting "baseball cards" instead of a judge

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/wo...pagewanted=all

    w's fisa, according to the aclu, "at least was targeted at agents of al qaeda" instead of "every customer of verizon"

    maybe that's why the former ap washington bureau chief and current editor of the national journal concludes, "if anything, things have gotten worse"

    (links above)

    w is history, ie, NOT the president

    do you need a source for the last assertion?
    Last edited by The Prof; 06-06-13 at 05:10 PM.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Oh well if the govt rules that the govt can get a list of every phone call I make, then it must be ok.
    Like someone else posted. Just cause it's legal doesn't make it right.
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  7. #167
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Yes and no. Yes, don't use past transgressions as an excuse for current and future ones. But no, don't pretend that these ills can be cured by partisan politics and simply electing the other party.
    Yep. This is pretty much what I was saying.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    The National Security Agency's warrant for metadata on every single Verizon call for three months is jaw-dropping in its scope. Except, well, the NSA's surveillance of our communications is most likely much, much bigger than that. Technology has made it possible for the American government to spy on citizens to an extent East Germany could only dream of. Basically everything we say that can be traced digitally is being collected by the NSA. We're supposed to trust that our government will be much better behaved, but they're not, and the White House almost admits it. That doesn't mean they're admitting everything.

    In 2006, USA Today's Leslie Cauley reported the NSA was secretly collecting call records with data from AT&T, Verizon, and BellSouth. A source told Cauley, "It's the largest database ever assembled in the world" and that the NSA wanted "to create a database of every call ever made" within U.S. territory. Likewise, in 2011, The New Yorker's Jane Mayer spoke to former NSA crypto-mathematician Bill Binney, who "believes that the agency now stores copies of all e-mails transmitted in America, in case the government wants to retrieve the details later." He thinks the NSA wants all emails to be searchable, the same way we search with Google. "The agency reportedly has the capacity to intercept and download, every six hours, electronic communications equivalent to the contents of the Library of Congress," Mayer said. As Mark Rumold, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, told The Atlantic Wire last night, "This is confirmation of what we've long feared, that the NSA has been tracking the calling patterns of the entire country."

    And the NSA isn't just collecting the things we say. It's also tracking what we buy and where we go. In 2008, The Wall Street Journal's Siobhan Gorman reported that the NSA's domestic data collection "have evolved to reach more broadly into data about people's communications, travel and finances in the U.S. than the domestic surveillance programs brought to light since the 2001 terrorist attacks." That means emails records, bank transfers, phone records, travel records.

    And the NSA would never abuse its awesome surveillance power, right? Wrong. In 2008, NSA workers told ABC News that they routinely eavesdropped on phone sex between troops serving overseas and their loved ones in America. They listened in on both satellite phone calls and calls from the phone banks in Iraq's Green Zone where soldiers call home.
    Phone Sex, Banks & Google for Emails: The NSA Spying Is Bigger Than Verizon - Elspeth Reeve - The Atlantic Wire

    hypocrisy, homer?

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I understand, but again so what?

    The only reason they did it with this warrant is to be able use whatever evidence in a US court. Before this, they just rendition people to secret prisons... imo it is an upgrade
    Well, I'd dare say that's not the only reason they would be looking to try to secure at least some type of warrant, though definitely one of them. Though I think that's completely seperate from the notion of rendition, as the practice is still an on going one and there's no indication what so ever that this program would have any impact on that at all.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes, I read the OP. I wasn't reading him back when Bush was in office, so I don't know if it was hypocritical or not. Regardless, even if it was, it was somewhat irrelevant to me. I've long come to realize that people react differently to their side and the other side doing the same thing in politics. Had he said something like "Spin this Obama fans, Or will you all treat this like you treated bush?" then I may've commented similarly asking him if how he's treating Obama how he treated Bush?

    I am really tired today, so maybe I am reading your response wrong, but if I am not, then I have no ****ing clue where you are coming from. To me, the OP was looking for another Obama scandel... like it was new news that this sort of eavesdropping ever existed. He made it partisan before anyone else did, yet he gets a ****ing pass from you. Priceless . Put yourself in my shoes and you'll see why I had to call him out. Even Maggie didn't know, yet she had no issues chiming in and calling me out even though she was duly informed a few posts later this this has been going on for over a decade. Oopsie.

    In any event, it's ****ing ridiculous that you're calling me out when all I was dealing out was straight facts. Disagree with me all you want, I don't give a ****. But to think I'm all thrilled about the current administration doing this is completely absurd.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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