Page 14 of 66 FirstFirst ... 412131415162464 ... LastLast
Results 131 to 140 of 659

Thread: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily [W:452]

  1. #131
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Good golly, Zyph... did you read the OP???? Frankly it stops just short of trolling. And for the love of God, why do you call it "attacking" Bush when all I am doing is setting the facts straight???
    Yes, I read the OP. I wasn't reading him back when Bush was in office, so I don't know if it was hypocritical or not. Regardless, even if it was, it was somewhat irrelevant to me. I've long come to realize that people react differently to their side and the other side doing the same thing in politics. Had he said something like "Spin this Obama fans, Or will you all treat this like you treated bush?" then I may've commented similarly asking him if how he's treating Obama how he treated Bush?

    I've come to a point where people who are hypocritical criticizing someone for being hypocritical bothers me more than either individual simply being hypocritical, if that makse any sense.

    As to the "attacking", call it "setting fact straight" or whatever else you want. You are (and more specific to my post, back when he was the center of these type of threads you were) negativily speaking regarding the man, in a condemning and/or disdainful fashion, which to me is "attacking" in the fashion of speech.

    yes, but from what I understand, you needed a court-approved warrant to do so. That's what keeps these spying programs from getting out of hand, IMO. But since the Bush Administration--or, pretty much the Patriot Act--that has changed. That is the biggie, eye-opening change.
    And that's a matter of how one rationalizes out why they want to be upset with one thing and not upset with another. ECHELON allowed for the warrantless survellience of foreign entities. While reportedly warrants were asked for when the NSA would try to pull information themselves on US citizens from ECHELON, the project was an intel sharing endevour by multiple nations and there was no such restrictions on foreign nations to easedropping on US citizens. None the less, even the lack of warrants on foreign entities is still warrantless searching. But again, all a matter of how one rationalizes things.

    Furthermore, forgive me but I'm just about 100% sure the survellience outrage towards Bush has not been singularly due to "warrantless" wiretapping. The vast majority of provisions that the Patriot Act ordered absolutely still had warrants required and yet were still decried routinely becuase of the standards to gain them being lowered and other such things.

    Even if one was to say that George Bush "did worse" things in total than Obama.....so what? What relevance does that have to what's being discussed about a current event happening today? Why should someone argue about people not holding Bush's feet to the fire instead actually holding Obama's feet to the fire UNLESS they don't feel Obama's feet needs to be held to the fire for the acts he's doing.

    There is zero reason to spend the majority of ones time in a thread like this blabbering on about Bush and trying to call imply people are hypocrites for not going afte bush save for one...

    That you're mad that "Their" guy didn't get into trouble for doing something you felt is bad, so you're going to give "Your" guy a pass and instead bitch about "their" guy and the response to him instead.

    Like you just did above?
    No, not like what I did above. You essentially went "WAAAAH! Bush did it first and worst! Why didn't you yell about him! I'll proceed to spend every breath talking about him and people not taking him to task, perhaps taking half a moment to give a quick one line half hearted slap at this so I can pat myself on the back...BUT BUSH DID IT FIRST!".

    I'm pointing out that Bush didn't "do it first", not in terms of questionable survellience actions that provided further erosion of 4th amendment rights and greater power of the government to look into peoples private lives. It happened under Bush, Under Clinton, Under Nixon, Under LBJ, Under FDR, and it can go on and on. My point was that there's always "THE LAST GUY...". Assaults on our 4th amendment rights, on the issues of survellience, on easedropping on individuals be it citizen of foreign, these things did not magically start with George W. Bush. My point was not "Blame Clinton" or "Blame LBJ" or "Blame ANYBODY"...it was that you should stop going "BUT BUSH!!!!!!" as if that's an excuse for Obama or as if he gave birth the notion into the world.

    I would figure that should've been obvious by the very next paragraph which you say you "agree with" and dealt with the very notion of "the last guy" complex.

    However, some steps are broader. Stopping the courts from getting involved was a big one, and that happened under Bush. Obama has certainly continued the program, but I am not sure he's done anything differently than staus quo.
    Which is pretty much precisely my point in the first place, you sharing your own hypocrisy as you bitch about hypocrisy.

    You were indignantly responding to a poster as if they reacted differently to Bush's actions than they have to Obama's actions...while you wantonly act differently to Obama's actions than you did to Bush's. You rationalize it away any way you want, but you are no less guilty of treating them different than those you were going after. I'm sure you make excuses for why for you "it's different" but I'd dare say those you're going after would similarly have in their mind excuse for why "it's different" as well. And I'm sure both of you would roll your eyes and claim the other ones "difference" is invalid, because its two sides of the same coin of person.

  2. #132
    Pontificator
    iliveonramen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    On a Gravy Train with Biscuit Wheels
    Last Seen
    12-16-17 @ 05:41 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    9,213

    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Man...conservative pile on.

    You can always tell what each base thinks based on where politicians move during the primaries and what they have to move away from during a general election. The Republican primary HAS NEVER! been based on shrinking the US security state. Ron Paul is the only one that talks about that.

    The primary during the 2008 election was all about dismantling a lot of Bush's policies

    At the end of the day...the left is forced to chose between Obamas (r Republican lites when it comes to "Security") or the architects of the Patriot Act and our current security state (Romney advisers were former Bush advisers).
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  3. #133
    Sage
    sangha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lower Hudson Valley, NY
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 05:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    59,990

    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    Sensenbrenner, the author of the Patriot Act, doesn't like this. "As the author of the Patriot Act, I am extremely troubled by the FBI’s interpretation of this legislation. While I believe the Patriot Act appropriately balanced national security concerns and civil rights, I have always worried about potential abuses. The Bureau’s broad application for phone records was made under the so-called business records provision of the Act. I do not believe the broadly drafted FISA order is consistent with the requirements of the Patriot Act. Seizing phone records of millions of innocent people is excessive and un-American."
    What hypocrite!

    It's been going on for years, and he has been briefed on this.

    But now that it's being reported in the press, suddenly he has objections
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  4. #134
    Sage



    Jack Fabulous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    midwest
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    10,728
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    It is very depressing to realize that neither of our major parties has any interest whatsoever in protecting our right to privacy. The Obama administration has proved to be just as hostile to the fourth amendment protection against warrantless searches as the Bush administration was. On one hand, it's nice to know that this sort of thing isn't a partisan issue. On the other hand, it's only that way because neither side seems to care.

    This crap needs to stop. If there was ever a reason for a bipartisan, grassroots movement to exist, this is it.
    I would like to echo that by adding that things like this will never stop as long as people continue to provide cover by pointing to the past transgressions of the opposition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

  5. #135
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    05-16-15 @ 02:32 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,537

    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    tiffany:

    Dept. of Homeland Security: Laptops, Phones Can Be Searched Based on Hunches « CBS DC

    U.S. border agents should continue to be allowed to search a traveler’s laptop, cellphone or other electronic device and keep copies of any data on them based on no more than a hunch, according to an internal Homeland Security Department study. It contends limiting such searches would prevent the U.S. from detecting child pornographers or terrorists and expose the government to lawsuits.

    The 23-page report, obtained by The Associated Press and the American Civil Liberties Union under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act, provides a rare glimpse of the Obama administration’s thinking on the long-standing but controversial practice of border agents and immigration officers searching and in some cases holding for weeks or months the digital devices of anyone trying to enter the U.S.

    Since his election, President Barack Obama has taken an expansive view of legal authorities in the name of national security, asserting that he can order the deaths of U.S. citizens abroad who are suspected of terrorism without involvement by courts, investigate reporters as criminals and — in this case — read and copy the contents of computers carried by U.S. travelers without a good reason to suspect wrongdoing.

    The DHS study, dated December 2011, said the border searches do not violate the First or Fourth amendments, which prohibit restrictions on speech and unreasonable searches and seizures. It specifically objected to a tougher standard in a 1986 government policy that allowed for only cursory review of a traveler’s documents.

    The U.S. government has always maintained that anything a person carries across the border — a backpack, a laptop, or anything hidden in a person’s body — is fair game to be searched as a means of keeping drugs, child pornography and other dangerous goods out of the country, and to enforce import laws. But as more Americans enter the U.S. with sophisticated computers, thumb drives, smartphones, cameras and other electronic devices that hold vast amounts of information about who they are and how they conduct business, privacy rights advocates have pressed for more checks on such authority, particularly if digital files are copied and shared with other federal agencies, such as the FBI.

    The ACLU, National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and other groups have sued to stop the practice, saying that it violates First and Fourth amendment rights. They say allowing agents to act on a hunch encourages racial profiling. Some activists say they also worry that the FBI and other federal investigators are using laptop searches at the border to collect intelligence on terror and criminal suspects without judicial checks.

    Catherine Crump, the ACLU lawyer who first requested the report, said it is the first detailed explanation of why the government believes it doesn’t need a reason to open a laptop or storage device and download files for further review. She described as inadequate the government’s argument that imposing a legal threshold to perform such searches would lead to lawsuits.

    “That’s just not good enough,” Crump said. “A purely suspicionless search opens the door to ethnic profiling.”

    Since the 2011 report, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has objected to searching electronic devices without reasonable suspicion.

    A person’s digital life ought not be hijacked simply by crossing a border,” Judge M. Margaret McKeown wrote for the appeals court majority in March.
    i guess it just depends on who has the hunch
    Last edited by The Prof; 06-06-13 at 04:11 PM.

  6. #136
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Yeah, I don't understand some people's reactions here. This is unacceptable under Obama just as it was unacceptable under Bush. It's really not that complicated.
    Props for you on saying this one.

    It's funny how the style of argument doesn't cross over at times for people when it doesn't suit them.

    Republicans are LAMBASTED when they get caught in a sex scandal. Treated with utter disdain by the media, open ridicule by Democrats, and held up as the pinnacle example of how hypocritical "republicans" as a whole are for the actions of single individuals. When confronted about this, the most common response is thus:

    "They put themselves out there as the traditional family values party, they put themselves out there as the moral authority, so they deserve to be treated harsher when they fail to live up to it because that makes them hypocrites on top of whatever else they did".

    For 7 years the Democrats put themselves out there as a party against the infringing of peoples 4th amendment rights when it came to survellience, against the notion of this "big government" stance on the "War on Terror", and against violation of rights in the name of "security" against "terrorism". They took power in a campaign built around a message of "Change" from politics as usual and a move away from the policies of George Bush. And when asked about things like this program, or drone strikes on US citizens abroad, and other such things so often you hear:

    "It's no different than what Bush did! They're just doing what Bush did and you didn't say anything about him! yeah it's bad but... I mean Bush did it and you didn't say anything, so so what?"

    I guess for many, that standard in terms of "expecting more out of..." a group because of what they campaigned on and what their partys message was only applies when it comes to boning.

  7. #137
    Uncanny
    Paschendale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New York City
    Last Seen
    03-31-16 @ 04:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    12,510

    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    I would like to echo that by adding that things like this will never stop as long as people continue to provide cover by pointing to the past transgressions of the opposition.
    Yes and no. Yes, don't use past transgressions as an excuse for current and future ones. But no, don't pretend that these ills can be cured by partisan politics and simply electing the other party.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  8. #138
    Sage


    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    SW Virginia
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 05:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    18,267

    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    What hypocrite!

    It's been going on for years, and he has been briefed on this.

    But now that it's being reported in the press, suddenly he has objections
    So it's the press's fault. If they hadn't reported this, nobody would be upset, and Sensenbrenner wouldn't be a hypocrite. I believe I've heard this argument before.

  9. #139
    Sage
    sangha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lower Hudson Valley, NY
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 05:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    59,990

    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    So it's the press's fault. If they hadn't reported this, nobody would be upset, and Sensenbrenner wouldn't be a hypocrite. I believe I've heard this argument before.
    I never said "nobody would be upset"

    Your making crap up about what I said demonstrates your desperation to make a point.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #140
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    There is still a warrant.

    And lets not forget...

    ECHELON - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This is so far from new... that it is funny that it is being used to attack Obama, when it has been going on since forever.
    Absolutely agree in terms of the latter.

    In terms of the former...I can see why people thought the type of stretchy logic the Bush Admin used was just that, and I'd say the same here. It's an end around in terms of a warrant, as it's going after information that a company has, but specifically because it basically is an umbrella that covers thousands of individuals that they normally would've had to get individual warrants for.

    Which goes to my previous point in terms of the notion that it's a matter of how one rationalizes where they want to draw their line of "okay" and "not okay"
    Last edited by Zyphlin; 06-06-13 at 04:17 PM.

Page 14 of 66 FirstFirst ... 412131415162464 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •