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Thread: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily [W:452]

  1. #101
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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    This is bigger than Obama or Bush, they did not concoct this by their lonesome, this is an ongoing effort orchestrated by our intelligence services with vast support in those circles.

    This is a bipartisan issue and it is serious because it paves the way to this kind of practice being standard and accepted. First its used for "national security", next it may be used for drug dealers, serious crimes, once that is normalized it will naturally be used for everything and the people will just expect it. I don't think that is necessarily a slippery slope fallacy because the leaps are pragmatic, the only difference is national security versus domestic security, its all under the veil of "keeping us safe".

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Here's an interesting take on the whole thing.

    Phone Record Gathering Story Blown Out of Proportion | National Review Online

    Here is what they donít tell you. Telephone record information (e.g., the numbers dialed and duration of calls) is not and has never been protected by the Fourth Amendment. The Supreme Court held as much in its 1979 Smith v. Maryland decision. Understand: the phone record information at issue here is very different from the content of telephone conversations. Because the latter involve higher privacy expectations, they are heavily regulated under not only the Fourth Amendment but both Title III of the federal penal code and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Under these laws, the government is not permitted to access communications content absent court authorization based on probable cause either that a crime has been committed or that the surveillance target is an agent of a foreign power (such as a terrorist organization or a hostile government).
    I have CDO, it's like OCD but the letters are in alphabetical order like they should be.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    So one wonders what they do with that information? Flag customers who make call to certain countries? It has to be something like that. ??
    I imagine it's something like that. Probably some sort of statistical analysis looking for patterns, etc
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Since the court order was just issued in April, I don't see how this can be considered old news. Not surprised Bush would be blamed though.
    This wasn't the first time a court order like this one has been issued. The NSA has been collecting similar evidence for years.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Can't they read your emails and text messages and IP address, google searches, etc. even without warrants and such? Phone calls are just a tiny portion of all the stuff they have access to, it's criminal.

    And you know despite what they say, the big social media firms are OK with this, because they are basically mining your data for advertising dollars. If federal law were much stricter on such privacy, how would they make billions on all your social media behaviors? Google isn't evil, but then they give the data to the government...evil by association?

    Some countries in Europe have far better privacy restrictions on government, and I'm disappointed we haven't been outraged enough to pursue such legislation. I mean, they can't keep your gun records, but oh boy they can keep the other 99.9% of your life.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by azgreg View Post
    Their take is correct, but the assumption that the story is blown out of proportion isn't. In fact it's yet another huge warning sign that we absolutely need a privacy amendment to the constitution.

    At issue here is not the FISA warrant, but the overly broad scope of it.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Where was your outrage during the Bush years?
    jan 28, 2008:

    No one should get a free pass to violate the basic civil liberties of the American people – not the President of the United States, and not the telecommunications companies that fell in line with his warrantless surveillance program. We have to make clear the lines that cannot be crossed.

    That is why I am co-sponsoring Senator Dodd’s amendment to remove the immunity provision. Secrecy must not trump accountability. We must show our citizens – and set an example to the world – that laws cannot be ignored when it is inconvenient.

    A grassroots movement of Americans has pushed this issue to the forefront. You have come together across this country. You have called upon our leaders to adhere to the Constitution. You have sent a message to the halls of power that the American people will not permit the abuse of power – and demanded that we reclaim our core values by restoring the rule of law.

    It’s time for Washington to hear your voices, and to act. I share your commitment to this cause, and will stand with you in the fights to come. And when I am President, the American people will once again be able to trust that their government will stand for justice, and will defend the liberties that we hold so dear as vigorously as we defend our security.
    Barack Obama Statement on Surveillance | Firedoglake

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    So one wonders what they do with that information? Flag customers who make call to certain countries? It has to be something like that. ??
    They're not going to tell you because of national security and all, but I can make a guess.

    If you have a list of who called who, then you could compile it into a large graph like data base. Think how facebook works with their graph search, it would be kind of like that. You could use this to figure out who's in what network, and how closely two people are connected. Then if someone is flagged for terrorism, you have a good idea of who else you might want to look into, how far their cell could extend, and if that cell is in contact with other cells.

    Also, I'd probably put in a disposable phone number detector. Criminals and terrorists cycle through disposable phones. However, they're unlikely to all change numbers at the same time. If you know which phones are disposable, you could essentially track the terrorist by the numbers they're calling even if the number they use changes.

    I'm by no means in support of all of this surveillance and security, mostly because I think it's a waste of time and money. I'm disappointed that Obama didn't dismantle it. HOWEVER, (and this is to posters in general, not you) you can't complain about this and then complain that the government isn' t doing enough to stop terrorism. THIS is part of what the government is doing. It's a cut and dry choice. If you don't want the government gathering this data then you have to accept a higher risk of terrorist attacks.

    I don't like it, but we as a people had a number of elections where we said that we were super afraid of guys from the middle east, and that we were willing to give up all sorts of rights so that the government would protect us. We voted that way in 2002, 2004, and 2006. Elections have consequences.

    So now what's the alternative? If conservatives want to roll back these programs then they have my full attention. However, everything I've read tells me that it's just more knee-jerk Obama hating. Obama was incompetent because he didn't stop Boston and he's corrupt because he allowed a program that's probably stopped other attacks.

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    You're still blaming someone else. It's pathetic.

    Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me | News Blogs - CNET News



    Now he's acting like a Fascist. Why are you supporting Fascism? Explain yourself.
    There is a warrant
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    There is a warrant
    For every person using Verizon, yeah, that's a good warrant. NOT.

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