Page 11 of 15 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 141

Thread: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

  1. #101
    Sage
    Visbek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 05:28 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,020

    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    Sure they lost their investment, but who got bailed out?
    The company, the employees, the bond-holders. Other indirect beneficiaries include the companies that supplied parts (they'd be out of business), Ford (who buys parts from those companies), and existing GM/Chrysler car owners (who now get warranty service).

    And what you're missing is that bailing out the existing shareholders in a bankruptcy would be highly unusual -- and, I might add, would just end up being another point of criticism and alleged favoritism / waste of money etc anyway.


    OK show me for every dollar they loaned GM what did they receive back for that dollar?
    That's not how it works.

    In a bankruptcy proceeding, creditors are first in line, and there's often negotiation about who gets what. Usually, everyone takes a bit of a haircut. It's rare that any bondholders get back 100%.


    What are you talking about, sure I can fault Obama, first 1 million jobs is a crock and a crucial American industry, is nothing but liberal spin. That is the biggest lie of liberal BS. GM under bankruptcy would have been sold off in whole or in pieces at a bargain price....
    They would've fired a ton of people, other companies would have sacked employees, Ford would be screwed, wages would bottom out. Job losses would be huge.


    The private sector never had a chance, GM was never up for sale in part or whole.
    The private sector "never had a chance" because the US was in the worst recession and credit crunch in 70 years. No one had the will or wherewithal to buy GM and Chrysler, especially since the entire US would've had a ****-fit if any foreign company tried to buy 'em out.


    who do you think all those shareholders and bond holders were that lost all their money.
    And as I said, they were going to lose it no matter what. Even a cursory understanding of bankruptcy proceedings should make that clear.


    Sorry, but that is as naive as it gets, the billions of lost tax payer money will never be returned, it's dead and gone.
    No, it's coming back as taxes on wages. Oh, and corporate taxes, forgot about that one.


    The union worker instead of working for GM would be working for brand X and they would still be working and paying taxes.
    During 9%+ unemployment and the worst recession in 70+ years? Were YOU going to hire them?

  2. #102
    Sage
    Fenton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,322

    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Yes, he could have done much better with the $787 billion (not trillion dollar) stimulus, but according to the CBO the stimulus was a success.

    Congressional Budget Office defends stimulus - Washington Post

    Did the stimulus work?

    Certainly not according to Republicans, who regularly blast President Obama’s “failed” economic policies on the campaign trail. GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney has called the $787 billion package of temporary tax cuts and spending hikes “the largest one-time careless expenditure of government money in American history.”

    But on Wednesday, under questioning from skeptical Republicans, the director of the nonpartisan (and widely respected) Congressional Budget Office was emphatic about the value of the 2009 stimulus. And, he said, the vast majority of economists agree.

    In a survey conducted by the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, 80 percent of economic experts agreed that, because of the stimulus, the U.S. unemployment rate was lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been otherwise.

    “Only 4 percent disagreed or strongly disagreed,” CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf told the House Budget Committee. “That,” he added, “is a distinct minority.”
    That's absolutely ridiculous.

    It's easy enough to go around and find subjective opinions on the effectiveness of the stimulus, but allot of their argument ( ones who believe it was successful ) comes from the bankrupt premise that Government printing and borrowing being pumped back into the economy is a trade off that pays back on the investment.

    Nothing is further from the truth, as Barrack Obama brought in the creme of the crop of useless liberal economist in 2008, who had decades of experience applying their corrupt theory in a vacuum ( classroom ) but never in the real world.

    Billions pumped back into public sector Unions so it could be transferred back to Democrat re-election funds via Union dues, so battleground states could be kept Democrat and poor.

    His Green jobs initiative was about the most retarded AND corrupt jobs initiative this Country has ever been exposed to. It was a 5th Grade Science experiment literally applied to our free market system, with little thought to ....well anything.

    High end Obama supporters and donors were set up in Green Job manufacturing companies before there was any demand, as the demand as Obama admitted was going to come from new taxes and regulations on coal, Co2 and oil and just about anything that would make your energy expenses sky rocket.

    NO THOUGHT was given to China's ability to come in and undercut manufacturing cost so low it shut those companies down and wasted billions in borrowed monies.

    You guys seriously screwed the Country over....you have no idea.

    Ever since then we've been getting manipulated data and numbers so Obama could give the impression of growth, but again, NOTHING that comes out of his administration is truthful.

    TRILLIONS in FED printing to buy up Treasuries so all of Obama's new debt can be kept cheap, and so those with a third grade understanding of the economy can brag about the Stock markets new heights...lol'
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

  3. #103
    Sage
    Visbek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 05:28 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,020

    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Due to Obama's interference in the bond market, blue chips, or those too large to fail without government stepping in, are having credit issues. Because no one is willing to buy first lien positions....
    Really? Is that why corporate bond sales hit a record in December 2012?

    Corporate Debt Sales Hit Record - WSJ.com

    Investors are falling all over each other to buy corporate debt.

    Oh, and bailouts like these aren't exactly new or unprecedented. In addition to previous auto industry bailouts (*cough* Reagan, Chrysler) they intermittently get involved in airline and rail bankruptcy proceedings. Please feel free to blast Reagan for saving Chrysler, I'm sure he did the wrong thing by having the government get involved in private industry. He should've just let Chrysler fail.

  4. #104
    Sage
    Fenton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,322

    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    The company, the employees, the bond-holders. Other indirect beneficiaries include the companies that supplied parts (they'd be out of business), Ford (who buys parts from those companies), and existing GM/Chrysler car owners (who now get warranty service).

    And what you're missing is that bailing out the existing shareholders in a bankruptcy would be highly unusual -- and, I might add, would just end up being another point of criticism and alleged favoritism / waste of money etc anyway.



    That's not how it works.

    In a bankruptcy proceeding, creditors are first in line, and there's often negotiation about who gets what. Usually, everyone takes a bit of a haircut. It's rare that any bondholders get back 100%.



    They would've fired a ton of people, other companies would have sacked employees, Ford would be screwed, wages would bottom out. Job losses would be huge.



    The private sector "never had a chance" because the US was in the worst recession and credit crunch in 70 years. No one had the will or wherewithal to buy GM and Chrysler, especially since the entire US would've had a ****-fit if any foreign company tried to buy 'em out.



    And as I said, they were going to lose it no matter what. Even a cursory understanding of bankruptcy proceedings should make that clear.



    No, it's coming back as taxes on wages. Oh, and corporate taxes, forgot about that one.



    During 9%+ unemployment and the worst recession in 70+ years? Were YOU going to hire them?
    We are CURRENTLY, experiencing the worst recession in a 100 years and is has nothing to do with George Bush and everything to do with Obama's policies.

    The job numbers and the monthly GDP had already bottomed out and started to bounce back prior to any funds being released from the stimulus.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

  5. #105
    Sage
    Fenton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,322

    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Really? Is that why corporate bond sales hit a record in December 2012?

    Corporate Debt Sales Hit Record - WSJ.com

    Investors are falling all over each other to buy corporate debt.

    Oh, and bailouts like these aren't exactly new or unprecedented. In addition to previous auto industry bailouts (*cough* Reagan, Chrysler) they intermittently get involved in airline and rail bankruptcy proceedings. Please feel free to blast Reagan for saving Chrysler, I'm sure he did the wrong thing by having the government get involved in private industry. He should've just let Chrysler fail.
    Why do you guys keep posting around the obvious ?

    Perpetual QE is the SOLE reason for corporate stocks as the massive purchasing of TREASURIES removes allot of the risk out of private securities.

    It's a remedy that's going to be worse than the disease ....well at least for middle class Americans.

    The effect of the FEDS policies on the jobs market and on the real economy is absolutelty zero.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

  6. #106
    Sage
    OpportunityCost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:09 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    16,810

    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Really? Is that why corporate bond sales hit a record in December 2012?

    Corporate Debt Sales Hit Record - WSJ.com

    Investors are falling all over each other to buy corporate debt.

    Oh, and bailouts like these aren't exactly new or unprecedented. In addition to previous auto industry bailouts (*cough* Reagan, Chrysler) they intermittently get involved in airline and rail bankruptcy proceedings. Please feel free to blast Reagan for saving Chrysler, I'm sure he did the wrong thing by having the government get involved in private industry. He should've just let Chrysler fail.
    There was a huge credit crisis around the time GM was having problems, this made it worse---thats my opinion.

    Right now, QE to the tune of 1T may have something to do with cheap lending being successful. Plunging into margin right now wouldnt be my financial goal.

  7. #107
    Curmudgeon


    LowDown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Houston
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:35 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,572
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    All the credit markets were closed at the time, it was Uncle Sam or nothing. Today there is approximately 1 million people working because of the bailout of GM and Chrysler. The citizens of Ohio showed their appreciation to President Obama by voting for him. Oh and all those workers are paying their share of FIT.
    There would be more people working now if GM had gone through bankruptcy. The ONLY difference the bailout made was that the union survived with their bloated wages and benefits and to this day hangs like a leach drinking the blood of stockholders, customers, and non-union workers with no benefit to anyone but the union. And because the union is still there GM can't afford to hire more people.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  8. #108
    Sage
    Born Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Sonny and Nice
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:49 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,396

    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post

    In a survey conducted by the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, 80 percent of economic experts agreed that, because of the stimulus, the U.S. unemployment rate was lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been otherwise.
    80% is far from 100% and interesting they don't state how much lower the unemployment rate would have been otherwise.

    Let me try this. For a trillion dollar stimulus you would sure think we would have got more for our buck than we did. Instead we got a trillion dollar increase in debt that our great grand-kids have to pay back. I suspect they would not be happy having to pick up the tab. Of course no one really cares about that, Obama did at one time, but that was all spoofing the public to get elected.

    Obama says adding $4 trillion to debt is unpatriotic. - YouTube

    Annotating Obama’s 2006 speech against boosting the debt limit - The Washington Post
    Liberals - Punish the Successful, Reward the Unsuccessful
    Liberals - Tax, Borrow, Spend, and Give Free Stuff
    Obama's legacy - President Donald Trump

  9. #109
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Where I am now
    Last Seen
    09-11-17 @ 03:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,386

    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    All the credit markets were closed at the time, it was Uncle Sam or nothing. Today there is approximately 1 million people working because of the bailout of GM and Chrysler. The citizens of Ohio showed their appreciation to President Obama by voting for him. Oh and all those workers are paying their share of FIT.
    Please show me links to unbiased, factual evidence that ANY of those 1 million employees would not have simply started working in the same factories producing the same/other vehicles for the manufacturers that bought them up after GM broke up?


    Corporations go bust every year.

    When they do, usually other corporations buy up the worthwhile components (and personnel with them), discard the rest and life goes on.

    For example, both Pontiac and Saturn had American buyers lined up to take them over when GM went belly up. But Government Motors refused to sell them and they just vanished - along with the thousands of workers they employed.

    If the free market had been allowed to work, those divisions might still be around, producing cars and employing thousands of Americans.


    GM represented 20% of the U.S. market - you think people who previously bought GM's were simply going to stop buying cars when they went under?

    Of course not - they would buy other cars.

    And since it would cost other car manufacturers FAR less money to take over ex-GM plants sold at auction, rather then build brand new ones from scratch; then it is reasonable to conclude that many/all of those workers would simply now be doing the same thing they are doing now, for someone else. PLUS, the American taxpayer would not be out well over $10 billion dollars from the GM bailouts that they never have to be repaid since they were - in essence - gifts from the government.

  10. #110
    Guru
    The Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    York, Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:47 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,742

    GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    In the end, GM makes ****ty, unreliable, uninteresting appliance vehicles that are way overpriced. And the only interesting vehicle that they make, the Volt, is so ridiculously overpriced that you'd have to have a lot of money and a retarded brain to even consider buying one. The handout from the government will only go so far until they're right back in the same situation, unless they get their act together and actually make vehicles that people are willing to, and can afford to buy.

    On the flip side, Ford has gotten their **** together, and they didn't even take bailout money. They make A LOT of nice vehicles that I would, and actually could afford to buy these days.
    Last edited by The Man; 06-09-13 at 07:36 PM.

Page 11 of 15 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •