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Thread: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

  1. #91
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    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    My point was the amount dedicated to "shovel-ready" projects was so low (note the pie charts I provided) that it was incorrect to characterize the stimulus as all about "shovel-ready" projects. The opinion piece you provided back that notion up. I agree with the writer that the amount should have been much higher.
    It would not have made any difference no matter how much more money they wanted to borrow, they didn't use what they had on shovel ready anything.
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    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Obama cared about "Jobs" who spend their earnings and pay taxes.
    All the while throwing the job creators under the bus. You know all those greedy shareholders that invested in GM to make a strong company and the bond holders that lent GM money to grow and pay bills so that GM could be profitable and pay taxes. And give dividends to the shareholders that are taxed once again after GM already paid tax on that money already. The bond holders lost everything so that lost can now not be reinvested into new businesses that create jobs.

    Last the tax payer laid out billions of dollars to this stupid Obama to keep the union working that they would never in hell repay in taxes what the tax payer already laid out. You have that backward liberal logic.
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    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    It would not have made any difference no matter how much more money they wanted to borrow, they didn't use what they had on shovel ready anything.
    LOL According to the article you provided a link to, they picked the wrong projects.

    After trumpeting shovel-ready projects as the bedrock of his stimulus plan, President Obama admitted famously that “there’s no such thing.” But there were, and are, shovel-ready projects. The administration just needed to find them. Case in point: the nuclear cleanup at the Savannah River Site in Aiken, S.C., which received $1.6 billion in stimulus money. As soon as the money arrived in the summer of 2009, the retired cold war nuclear plant hired thousands of workers to decommission reactors, install pumps in the liquid waste tanks and ship barrels of solid waste to a salt formation in the Chihuahuan Desert. Workers from out of town filled up nearly all of the area’s apartments, hotels and restaurants. The county’s unemployment dropped to 8.5 percent from 10.2 percent in a matter of months.

    Why did it work? Because the government could immediately send billions of dollars to contractors who were already in place for a project that had well-established plans.

    The problem with most of the projects was that the Obama administration and Congress had defined “shovel ready” too broadly. The original plan called for putting “shovels in the ground” within 90 days. But when the rules were written, states ended up with 120 days to have their road projects “approved.” It often took six more months to a year before most of the projects were under construction.

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    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    All the while throwing the job creators under the bus. You know all those greedy shareholders that invested in GM to make a strong company...?
    Shareholders ALWAYS lose out in a bankruptcy.

    Nothing about this process specifically targeted the shareholders. No matter what happened, they were going to lose. If GM closed its doors, they'd lose. If GM got reorganized without government intervention, they'd still lose.


    And give dividends to the shareholders that are taxed once again after GM already paid tax on that money already.
    Nope. They took their risks, they lost out. Those are the risks you take when you buy stocks.


    The bond holders lost everything so that lost can now not be reinvested into new businesses that create jobs.
    Not even close.

    The bondholders did get a little more of a haircut than usual, but they did not "lose everything."


    Last the tax payer laid out billions of dollars to this stupid Obama to keep the union working that they would never in hell repay in taxes what the tax payer already laid out.
    Ok, first of all, you can hardly fault Obama for saving both 1 million jobs AND a crucial American industry. Everyone has been screaming about jobs for years, and he saved those jobs. The private sector refused to participate in the bankruptcy, period.

    Second, it won't take all that long for those employees to generate enough taxes to cover the loss -- it could be as soon as 4 years. PLUS those employees, because they didn't lose their jobs, did not wind up collecting unemployment, food stamps, TANF, early retirement or other benefits.

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    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Shareholders ALWAYS lose out in a bankruptcy.

    Nothing about this process specifically targeted the shareholders. No matter what happened, they were going to lose. If GM closed its doors, they'd lose. If GM got reorganized without government intervention, they'd still lose.
    Sure they lost their investment, but who got bailed out????????????? The union, not the shareholders

    Nope. They took their risks, they lost out. Those are the risks you take when you buy stocks.
    That's the same risk when a person go to work for any company, if it goes barnrupt, the owners loose a company and the employees lose a job.

    Not even close.

    The bondholders did get a little more of a haircut than usual, but they did not "lose everything."
    OK show me for every dollar they loaned GM what did they receive back for that dollar?

    Ok, first of all, you can hardly fault Obama for saving both 1 million jobs AND a crucial American industry. Everyone has been screaming about jobs for years, and he saved those jobs. The private sector refused to participate in the bankruptcy, period.
    What are you talking about, sure I can fault Obama, first 1 million jobs is a crock and a crucial American industry, is nothing but liberal spin. That is the biggest lie of liberal BS. GM under bankruptcy would have been sold off in whole or in pieces at a bargain price to make the future owners be able to make a reasonable profit without billions of tax payer money. We're talking some of my money

    The private sector never had a chance, GM was never up for sale in part or whole. GM never put up any of it's operations for sale to pay debtors. It was held in whole for Obama to take it over with part of my tax dollars.

    Speaking of the private sector that refused to participate, who do you think all those shareholders and bond holders were that lost all their money. Yep the private sector. They sure the hell did participate by losing everything they had

    Second, it won't take all that long for those employees to generate enough taxes to cover the loss -- it could be as soon as 4 years. PLUS those employees, because they didn't lose their jobs, did not wind up collecting unemployment, food stamps, TANF, early retirement or other benefits.
    Sorry, but that is as naive as it gets, the billions of lost tax payer money will never be returned, it's dead and gone. The union worker instead of working for GM would be working for brand X and they would still be working and paying taxes. The tax dollars are lost the same as a shareholder.
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    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    LOL According to the article you provided a link to, they picked the wrong projects.

    After trumpeting shovel-ready projects as the bedrock of his stimulus plan, President Obama admitted famously that “there’s no such thing.” But there were, and are, shovel-ready projects. The administration just needed to find them. Case in point: the nuclear cleanup at the Savannah River Site in Aiken, S.C., which received $1.6 billion in stimulus money. As soon as the money arrived in the summer of 2009, the retired cold war nuclear plant hired thousands of workers to decommission reactors, install pumps in the liquid waste tanks and ship barrels of solid waste to a salt formation in the Chihuahuan Desert. Workers from out of town filled up nearly all of the area’s apartments, hotels and restaurants. The county’s unemployment dropped to 8.5 percent from 10.2 percent in a matter of months.

    Why did it work? Because the government could immediately send billions of dollars to contractors who were already in place for a project that had well-established plans.

    The problem with most of the projects was that the Obama administration and Congress had defined “shovel ready” too broadly. The original plan called for putting “shovels in the ground” within 90 days. But when the rules were written, states ended up with 120 days to have their road projects “approved.” It often took six more months to a year before most of the projects were under construction.
    I see you laugh at the stupidity of your beloved Obama, not picking the right project.

    Then in Red, Obama and Congress, which translated is 100% stupid democrats that not one republican voted for this failed trillion dollar stimulus. All the changes and stupidity of this failed stimulus was all 100% democrats. Read above "The administration just needed to find them." and who's is this administration, it's Obama's and you and he laugh about "geeee I guess there was no shovel ready anything, yes I am stupid"
    Liberals - Punish the Successful, Reward the Unsuccessful
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    Obama's legacy - President Donald Trump

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    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    You first. Show me that first lien holders position matters based on the type of bankruptcy.

    Nah, Ill toss a few sources at you. I expect the same in return.

    Bondholder furious over GM bankruptcy – American Morning - CNN.com Blogs
    G.M. Bondholders: We're Not Seeking Bankruptcy - NYTimes.com
    The Auto Bailout and the Rule of Law > Publications > National Affairs
    Old GM Bondholders Getting Shares in New General Motors May Depress Price - Bloomberg

    Some excerpts:
    When U.S. Bankruptcy Court releases the warrants and stock through a trust, bondholders will collectively get 136.4 million warrants for one share each at $10 a share and an equal amount at $18.33 a share, said Wilmington Trust, which is based in Wilmington, Delaware.

    Owners of old GM bonds must notify Wilmington Trust by April 15 to get stock and warrants on April 21. If they notify Wilmington later, the bondholders will get their shares and warrants at a later date.

    Currently, Motors Liquidation has about $30 billion in claims allowed by bankruptcy court, of which about $29 billion are from the bondholders, said a person familiar with the matter.





    Depends on what source you use, and what the valuation of the stocks are, but the unions were given better position in the new company than their agreements warranted...legally.

    Just an FYI but current GM stock is $34.95/share.
    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    Sure they lost their investment, but who got bailed out????????????? The union, not the shareholders



    That's the same risk when a person go to work for any company, if it goes barnrupt, the owners loose a company and the employees lose a job.



    OK show me for every dollar they loaned GM what did they receive back for that dollar?



    What are you talking about, sure I can fault Obama, first 1 million jobs is a crock and a crucial American industry, is nothing but liberal spin. That is the biggest lie of liberal BS. GM under bankruptcy would have been sold off in whole or in pieces at a bargain price to make the future owners be able to make a reasonable profit without billions of tax payer money. We're talking some of my money

    The private sector never had a chance, GM was never up for sale in part or whole. GM never put up any of it's operations for sale to pay debtors. It was held in whole for Obama to take it over with part of my tax dollars.

    Speaking of the private sector that refused to participate, who do you think all those shareholders and bond holders were that lost all their money. Yep the private sector. They sure the hell did participate by losing everything they had
    Post 75 Born Free. Most bondholders got under 30cents on the dollar. Under a normal, legal, uninfluenced bankruptcy proceeding, they were to be made whole ahead of any other entity, thats what first lien means and its why its a low yield bond. Its safe but low return---until Obama ****ed with it.

    Which brings up another problem. Due to Obama's interference in the bond market, blue chips, or those too large to fail without government stepping in, are having credit issues. Because no one is willing to buy first lien positions now that precendence has been set breaking that contract for the first time in 200 years. So investment is down....you dont say.

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    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    I see you laugh at the stupidity of your beloved Obama, not picking the right project.

    Then in Red, Obama and Congress, which translated is 100% stupid democrats that not one republican voted for this failed trillion dollar stimulus. All the changes and stupidity of this failed stimulus was all 100% democrats. Read above "The administration just needed to find them." and who's is this administration, it's Obama's and you and he laugh about "geeee I guess there was no shovel ready anything, yes I am stupid"
    Yes, he could have done much better with the $787 billion (not trillion dollar) stimulus, but according to the CBO the stimulus was a success.

    Congressional Budget Office defends stimulus - Washington Post

    Did the stimulus work?

    Certainly not according to Republicans, who regularly blast President Obama’s “failed” economic policies on the campaign trail. GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney has called the $787 billion package of temporary tax cuts and spending hikes “the largest one-time careless expenditure of government money in American history.”

    But on Wednesday, under questioning from skeptical Republicans, the director of the nonpartisan (and widely respected) Congressional Budget Office was emphatic about the value of the 2009 stimulus. And, he said, the vast majority of economists agree.

    In a survey conducted by the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, 80 percent of economic experts agreed that, because of the stimulus, the U.S. unemployment rate was lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been otherwise.

    “Only 4 percent disagreed or strongly disagreed,” CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf told the House Budget Committee. “That,” he added, “is a distinct minority.”

  9. #99
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    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Post 75 Born Free. Most bondholders got under 30cents on the dollar. Under a normal, legal, uninfluenced bankruptcy proceeding, they were to be made whole ahead of any other entity, thats what first lien means and its why its a low yield bond. Its safe but low return---until Obama ****ed with it.

    Which brings up another problem. Due to Obama's interference in the bond market, blue chips, or those too large to fail without government stepping in, are having credit issues. Because no one is willing to buy first lien positions now that precendence has been set breaking that contract for the first time in 200 years. So investment is down....you dont say.
    Excellent post.

    Those dumbed down by a head full of corrupt ideology never look at the future consequences of their left wing activism, ( essentially what Obama did to the GM Bond holders ).

    So any private corporation loaded with left wing Union influence would seemingly have a hard time drumming up any credit ( unless it was FORCED UPON them ) .
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

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    Re: GM's return to top continues as it rejoins S&P 500

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Yes, he could have done much better with the $787 billion (not trillion dollar) stimulus, but according to the CBO the stimulus was a success.

    Congressional Budget Office defends stimulus - Washington Post

    Did the stimulus work?

    Certainly not according to Republicans, who regularly blast President Obama’s “failed” economic policies on the campaign trail. GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney has called the $787 billion package of temporary tax cuts and spending hikes “the largest one-time careless expenditure of government money in American history.”

    But on Wednesday, under questioning from skeptical Republicans, the director of the nonpartisan (and widely respected) Congressional Budget Office was emphatic about the value of the 2009 stimulus. And, he said, the vast majority of economists agree.

    In a survey conducted by the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, 80 percent of economic experts agreed that, because of the stimulus, the U.S. unemployment rate was lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been otherwise.

    “Only 4 percent disagreed or strongly disagreed,” CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf told the House Budget Committee. “That,” he added, “is a distinct minority.”
    Calling Elmendorf non partisan isnt the only falsehood in the above quote.

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