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Thread: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

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    Re: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    What evidence do you have that he intended to aid the enemy? Even if Bin Laden obtained the information, unless Manning intended him to have it, then it doesn't satisfy element 2b. What Manning did was not treason. And we should defend whistleblowers, and stop the government from keeping so many secrets from us. It is supposed to serve us, not the other way around.
    Re-read article 104 and the elements. Intention is not a factor so irrelevant.

    And he's not a whistleblower. A whistleblower releases specific information related to a gross violation, he didn't do that. Nothing he released revealed crimes. Some embarrassing and unflattering information but nothing criminal.

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    Re: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishstyx View Post
    Re-read article 104 and the elements. Intention is not a factor so irrelevant.

    And he's not a whistleblower. A whistleblower releases specific information related to a gross violation, he didn't do that. Nothing he released revealed crimes. Some embarrassing and unflattering information but nothing criminal.
    Element 2b. It's in your quote. You quoted it. And whistleblowing is not as clearly defined as you seem to think it is.
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    Re: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Element 2b. It's in your quote. You quoted it. And whistleblowing is not as clearly defined as you seem to think it is.
    2 (b) would be Attempting to Aid the Enemy. 1 (a) and (b) says nothing of intent. Its a different subset of an Article 104. I'd doubt they're going for 104(2). Likely 104(1) or 104(5).

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    Re: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishstyx View Post
    2 (b) would be Attempting to Aid the Enemy. 1 (a) and (b) says nothing of intent. Its a different subset of an Article 104. I'd doubt they're going for 104(2). Likely 104(1) or 104(5).
    Those are all components of the same charge. They must all be met. It's an "and", not an "or".

    Also, your link is to a procedural manual, it does not delve into the elements of an offense. This link here: Committing Treason, discusses the four essential elements of treason, taken from three supreme court cases. "(1) the defendant's intention to betray the United States, (2) manifested in an overt act, (3) testified to by two witnesses, (4) which gave aid and comfort to the enemy." There is absolutely no evidence to suggest intent to the betray the United States. Manning acted with intent to benefit the country with discussion and transparency of the government. He was not intending to aid any hostile force.

    Manning's actions do not constitute treason.
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    Re: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And whistleblowing is not as clearly defined as you seem to think it is.
    But how is it whistleblowing if you don't even know what it is you are releasing?

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    Re: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

    In a perfect world Bradley would be dead long ago.

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    Re: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Element 2b. It's in your quote. You quoted it. And whistleblowing is not as clearly defined as you seem to think it is.
    What is clearly agreed on is that said individual goes to a figure of authority - actually treating it as a serious matter to be dealt with.

    Not just randomly releasing info to the net blindly and aimlessly.

    Whistleblowing protection isn't meant to protect hackers and snoops.
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    Re: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Those are all components of the same charge. They must all be met. It's an "and", not an "or".

    Also, your link is to a procedural manual, it does not delve into the elements of an offense. This link here: Committing Treason, discusses the four essential elements of treason, taken from three supreme court cases. "(1) the defendant's intention to betray the United States, (2) manifested in an overt act, (3) testified to by two witnesses, (4) which gave aid and comfort to the enemy." There is absolutely no evidence to suggest intent to the betray the United States. Manning acted with intent to benefit the country with discussion and transparency of the government. He was not intending to aid any hostile force.

    Manning's actions do not constitute treason.
    I don't think you understand or you have been grossly misinformed. PFC Manning is being charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. He's being charged with an Article 104-Aiding the Enemy and I believe an Article 92-Disobeying an order. He's not being tried in federal court with treason, he's being tried by a military court-marital.

    However, under the UCMJ, each Article contains elements which are separate, more specific violations under the general article. The link I provided is the front to back process for processing crimes under the UCMJ.

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    Re: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    What is clearly agreed on is that said individual goes to a figure of authority - actually treating it as a serious matter to be dealt with.

    Not just randomly releasing info to the net blindly and aimlessly.

    Whistleblowing protection isn't meant to protect hackers and snoops.
    No, it most certainly includes going to the press. Which is what Manning did. And "blindly and aimlessly" is an unfounded assertion that is totally contradicted by the evidence. Manning had a specific aim, to expose questionable and illegal activities by the government to the people, and to stimulate discussion about foreign policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishstyx View Post
    I don't think you understand or you have been grossly misinformed. PFC Manning is being charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. He's being charged with an Article 104-Aiding the Enemy and I believe an Article 92-Disobeying an order. He's not being tried in federal court with treason, he's being tried by a military court-marital.

    However, under the UCMJ, each Article contains elements which are separate, more specific violations under the general article. The link I provided is the front to back process for processing crimes under the UCMJ.
    Then that's not treason he's being charged with. Make up your mind. If I have been grossly misinformed, I have been misinformed by you.

    Yes, in the UCMJ, which you did not cite in your quote, there are 5 different charges. All of them specifically list intent as a requirement except the first, which certainly does not have any language to suggest strict liability. Intent is an element of nearly every criminal charge, both in the US court system and in military court. There is no evidence to prove this intent. Manning did not aid any enemies. He went to the press.
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    Re: US soldier goes on trial over security leaks

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    So prosecutors wanna prove that Bin-Laden asked for information from Wikileaks? So by the logic wouldnt any source that Bin-Laden goes to for intelligence and information can be seen as "aiding the enemy"? I still can wrap my head around of someone telling the truth and showing how governments work.
    They wouldn't have to, unless they found evidence supporting that he did. He stole classified information, and had it publicly disseminated, which also put the information in the hands of the enemy. It's a capital offense, regardless of this idiot's intentions, and he knew this.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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