• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times [W:243]

Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

ocean515 said:
Of course you certainly have been able to discern something about Shulman's carefully crafted response:

​
"Would not have been appropriate to have a conversation with the White -- with anyone at the White House about the subject of discriminating against conservative groups in any part of our operation."

The operative words being "about the subject of discriminating against conservative groups". Meaning, they didn't discuss discriminating, but did perhaps discuss ways to hold up those groups using extensive IRS investigations.

Surely, as a published author of high acclaim, you can appreciate the subtle difference.

Or not...:lamo
Click to expand...
He was under oath during his testimony.
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

pbrauer said:
He was under oath during his testimony.
Click to expand...

Of course he was.

He didn't say he didn't discuss targeting groups, he said under oath, he didn't discuss discriminating against them.

Certainly you can appreaciate the difference.

"Would not have been appropriate to have a conversation with the White -- with anyone at the White House about the subject of discriminating against conservative groups in any part of our operation."
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

pbrauer said:
How did he make himself look guilty? BTW, he went there only 11 times, not 157.

The Fake Story About the IRS Commissioner and the White House
Click to expand...

He made himself look stupidly guilty because he, unlike you and his (new) lefty friends, has offered a more -- um -- vacuous explanation of his visits. And the holes still remain: the visits eliminated by the author in your link are not in fact to be eliminated at all. Perhaps Shulman knows this and that's why his story is so inferior to yours.:mrgreen:
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

Jack Hays said:
He made himself look stupidly guilty because he, unlike you and his (new) lefty friends, has offered a more -- um -- vacuous explanation of his visits. And the holes still remain: the visits eliminated by the author in your link are not in fact to be eliminated at all. Perhaps Shulman knows this and that's why his story is so inferior to yours.:mrgreen:
Click to expand...

"Indeed, of the 157 events Shulman was cleared to attend, White House records only provide time of arrival information -- confirming that he actually went to them -- for 11 events over the 2009-2012 period, and time of departure information for only six appointments. According to the White House records, Shulman signed in twice in 2009, five times in 2010, twice in 2011, and twice in 2012. That does not mean that he did not go to other meetings, only that the White House records do not show he went to the 157 meetings he was granted Secret Service clearance to attend."
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

pbrauer said:
"Indeed, of the 157 events Shulman was cleared to attend, White House records only provide time of arrival information -- confirming that he actually went to them -- for 11 events over the 2009-2012 period, and time of departure information for only six appointments. According to the White House records, Shulman signed in twice in 2009, five times in 2010, twice in 2011, and twice in 2012. That does not mean that he did not go to other meetings, only that the White House records do not show he went to the 157 meetings he was granted Secret Service clearance to attend."
Click to expand...

The system is surprisingly casual. I'm confident he went all 157 times, or something close to that.:mrgreen:
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

Jack Hays said:
The system is surprisingly casual. I'm confident he went all 157 times, or something close to that.:mrgreen:
Click to expand...
To see who?
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

Jack Hays said:
That, my dear Watson, is the question.:mrgreen:
Click to expand...
115 of them were scheduled in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building .

Eisenhower Executive Office Building, recorded as Old Executive Office Building
Michael Hash, senior adviser, Health and Human Services Office of Health Reform and "one of the most important players in the 2009-2010 health-care debate," according to the Washington Post.
Margaret Weiss, George Washington University class of 2007 and a special assistant to Jeffrey D. Zients, then deputy director for Management at the Office of Management and Budget.
Germain Edward Deseve, "the White House point man on stimulus implementation," according to USA Today.
Cass Sunstein, administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

pbrauer said:
"Indeed, of the 157 events Shulman was cleared to attend, White House records only provide time of arrival information -- confirming that he actually went to them -- for 11 events over the 2009-2012 period, and time of departure information for only six appointments. According to the White House records, Shulman signed in twice in 2009, five times in 2010, twice in 2011, and twice in 2012. That does not mean that he did not go to other meetings, only that the White House records do not show he went to the 157 meetings he was granted Secret Service clearance to attend."
Click to expand...

i want to take a look at the White House Visitor Records from the official WH site and discovered some interesting facts.
only about 20% had a TOA (time of arrival) beside their name and about 40% of those never had a TOD (time of departure)

White House Visitor Records | The White House


So according to your little article only 1 out of 5 attended meetings they was scheduled to attend and 40% of those never left after the meeting

i would not trust the accuracy of that list
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

This many meetings makes me worry about how complicated Obamacare is going to be.
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

pbrauer said:
Thank you Jack for the like, however, I found the following testimony from the oversight hearing::cool:

CONNOLLY: There might be many reasons you would be at the White House. What would be some of the reasons you might be at the White House?

SHULMAN: The Easter egg roll with my kids.

CONNOLLY: Well...

SHULMAN: Questions about the administrability of tax policy.

CONNOLLY: All right.

SHULMAN: They were thinking of our budget -- us helping the Department of Education streamline application processes for financial aid...

CONNOLLY: I just want to be clear. You're very aware of the fact that you're under oath today?

SHULMAN: Yeah, very aware of that.

CONNOLLY: And your testimony, to be very clear, in response to Mr. Jordan's question, is that you've -- you've never had any conversation with respect to this subject, the subject of this hearing, with anybody at the White House, though you were at the White House 118 times? Now, that -

SHULMAN: Yeah, I mean, just so I'm -- just so I'm clear, I have no memory. Wouldn't have been appropriate. Would not have been appropriate to have a conversation with the White -- with anyone at the White House about the subject of discriminating against conservative groups in any part of our operation.
​
Click to expand...

Yeah Pete, you'll excuse me if I don't fall for Media Matters word on the subject. They have a documented track record of not only taking their opponents out of context, but outright making **** up in defense of liberal/progressive agendas, and people.

However, if the truth is on Shulman's side, why the evasive stance in testimony? Why are lib/progressives trying everything under the sun to deflect the basic point from trying to say that Shulman is a Bush appointee, and therefore makes him somehow a republican when he gave money to the DNC, to harping that nothing illegal was done....It stinks.

Too many people obfuscating for there not to be any "there, there."
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

pbrauer said:
He was under oath during his testimony.
Click to expand...

Very true... He was under oath, so it was important for him to choose his words wisely.

What I found interesting was his answer to the question:

CONNOLLY: And your testimony, to be very clear, in response to Mr. Jordan's question, is that you've -- you've never had any conversation with respect to this subject, the subject of this hearing, with anybody at the White House, though you were at the White House 118 times? Now, that -


SHULMAN: Yeah, I mean, just so I'm -- just so I'm clear, I have no memory. Wouldn't have been appropriate. Would not have been appropriate to have a conversation with the White -- with anyone at the White House about the subject of discriminating against conservative groups in any part of our operation.​


If he never had any such conversation with anyone at the White House as he implies, why didn't he simply answer "No sir, I didn't"? Him instead saying such a conversation "Wouldn't have been appropriate" is not a denial, but gives the impression it is... Therefore, if it is discovered he did have such a conversation, he can't be charged with lying to congress.

His testimony tells me that he did have such conversations on the subject with members of the Administration, otherwise his answers would have been more direct and forthcoming.
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

Grim17 said:
Very true... He was under oath, so it was important for him to choose his words wisely.

What I found interesting was his answer to the question:

CONNOLLY: And your testimony, to be very clear, in response to Mr. Jordan's question, is that you've -- you've never had any conversation with respect to this subject, the subject of this hearing, with anybody at the White House, though you were at the White House 118 times? Now, that -


SHULMAN: Yeah, I mean, just so I'm -- just so I'm clear, I have no memory. Wouldn't have been appropriate. Would not have been appropriate to have a conversation with the White -- with anyone at the White House about the subject of discriminating against conservative groups in any part of our operation.​


If he never had any such conversation with anyone at the White House as he implies, why didn't he simply answer "No sir, I didn't"? Him instead saying such a conversation "Wouldn't have been appropriate" is not a denial, but gives the impression it is... Therefore, if it is discovered he did have such a conversation, he can't be charged with lying to congress.

His testimony tells me that he did have such conversations on the subject with members of the Administration, otherwise his answers would have been more direct and forthcoming.
Click to expand...


Absolutely....We are confronted with an administration that plays semantics in everything they utter.
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

j-mac said:
Yeah Pete, you'll excuse me if I don't fall for Media Matters word on the subject. They have a documented track record of not only taking their opponents out of context, but outright making **** up in defense of liberal/progressive agendas, and people.

However, if the truth is on Shulman's side, why the evasive stance in testimony? Why are lib/progressives trying everything under the sun to deflect the basic point from trying to say that Shulman is a Bush appointee, and therefore makes him somehow a republican when he gave money to the DNC, to harping that nothing illegal was done....It stinks.

Too many people obfuscating for there not to be any "there, there."
Click to expand...

Reading your other posts on this subject, I am assuming you think he was being evasive when he mentioned the Easter Egg Roll. What I have learned is the "White House" is actually a complex of three buildings: Eisenhower Executive Office, New Executive Office Building and the actual White House. The list the DC used covers all three. So when he was asked about when he was at the White House, he was talking about the actual White House, so its very possible his answer wasn't being evasive at all.

Grim17 said:
Very true... He was under oath, so it was important for him to choose his words wisely.

What I found interesting was his answer to the question:

CONNOLLY: And your testimony, to be very clear, in response to Mr. Jordan's question, is that you've -- you've never had any conversation with respect to this subject, the subject of this hearing, with anybody at the White House, though you were at the White House 118 times? Now, that -


SHULMAN: Yeah, I mean, just so I'm -- just so I'm clear, I have no memory. Wouldn't have been appropriate. Would not have been appropriate to have a conversation with the White -- with anyone at the White House about the subject of discriminating against conservative groups in any part of our operation.​


If he never had any such conversation with anyone at the White House as he implies, why didn't he simply answer "No sir, I didn't"? Him instead saying such a conversation "Wouldn't have been appropriate" is not a denial, but gives the impression it is... Therefore, if it is discovered he did have such a conversation, he can't be charged with lying to congress.

His testimony tells me that he did have such conversations on the subject with members of the Administration, otherwise his answers would have been more direct and forthcoming.
Click to expand...

You have a suspicious mind. I've said elsewhere that Rep. Issa should call him back to clear up any loose ends. I believe we need to know the truth. Here is a link by a liberal that takes the DC story to task, her analysis maintains he went to the complex 11 times between 2009 and 2012.

The Fake Story About the IRS Commissioner and the White House - Garance Franke-Ruta - The Atlantic

The latest twist in the conservative effort to tie the IRS tax-exempt targeting scandal to the president is to focus on public visitor records released by the White House, in which former IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman's name appears 157 times between 2009 and 2012. Unfortunately, few of those pushing this line have bothered to read more than the topline of that public information. Bill O'Reilly on Thursday called them the "smoking gun" and demanded of Shulman, "You must explain under oath what you were doing at the White House on 157 separate occasions." His statement built on a Daily Caller story, "IRS's Shulman had more public White House visits than any Cabinet member." An Investors Business Daily story and slew of blog items repeated the charges.
snip​
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

Jack Hays said:
The system is surprisingly casual. I'm confident he went all 157 times, or something close to that.:mrgreen:
Click to expand...

How confident are you about the 157? Here is a link to the database The Daily Caller used fort their report:

White House Visitor Log - The Washington Post

Follow the link and read the comment.
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

mak2 said:
Someone please explain to me how the is evidence of anything.
Click to expand...

It's not really, but c'mon, put Bush and his administration under the same scenario, and you would see how Obama and his IRS Commisioner could lose credibillity.

"If it walks like a duck ...."
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

pbrauer said:
Reading your other posts on this subject, I am assuming you think he was being evasive when he mentioned the Easter Egg Roll. What I have learned is the "White House" is actually a complex of three buildings: Eisenhower Executive Office, New Executive Office Building and the actual White House. The list the DC used covers all three. So when he was asked about when he was at the White House, he was talking about the actual White House, so its very possible his answer wasn't being evasive at all.



You have a suspicious mind. I've said elsewhere that Rep. Issa should call him back to clear up any loose ends. I believe we need to know the truth. Here is a link by a liberal that takes the DC story to task, her analysis maintains he went to the complex 11 times between 2009 and 2012.

The Fake Story About the IRS Commissioner and the White House - Garance Franke-Ruta - The Atlantic

The latest twist in the conservative effort to tie the IRS tax-exempt targeting scandal to the president is to focus on public visitor records released by the White House, in which former IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman's name appears 157 times between 2009 and 2012. Unfortunately, few of those pushing this line have bothered to read more than the topline of that public information. Bill O'Reilly on Thursday called them the "smoking gun" and demanded of Shulman, "You must explain under oath what you were doing at the White House on 157 separate occasions." His statement built on a Daily Caller story, "IRS's Shulman had more public White House visits than any Cabinet member." An Investors Business Daily story and slew of blog items repeated the charges.
snip​
Click to expand...
I have shown the WH visitor list/log to be very inaccurate
trfjr said:
i want to take a look at the White House Visitor Records from the official WH site and discovered some interesting facts.
only about 20% had a TOA (time of arrival) beside their name and about 40% of those never had a TOD (time of departure)

White House Visitor Records | The White House


So according to your little article only 1 out of 5 attended meetings they was scheduled to attend and 40% of those never left after the meeting

i would not trust the accuracy of that list
Click to expand...

the list shouldn't be used as evidence for the 157 visit and shouldn't be used to show 11 visits either
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

pbrauer said:
How confident are you about the 157? Here is a link to the database The Daily Caller used fort their report:

White House Visitor Log - The Washington Post

Follow the link and read the comment.
Click to expand...

I take it as more an order of magnitude than a precise count. I believe I already posted that the WH logs & procedures are surprisingly casual.:cool:
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

The people that put these criminals and incompetents into power need just accept their outright complicity and apologize.

There are going to be countless people stepping forward to give their personal account of harassment and so far the number of people targeted by the investigation has risen to over 80 people, who will under threat of prosecution offer up massive amounts of testimony that will directly implicate WH staff and administration officials.

Tom Brokaw. the talent-less hack, said this was no where near as damaging as Watergate, because Watergate was a direct attack on Constitutional liberty. What a lunatic.


This is going to find it's way to the WH, to Obama, I promise, as his only defense is he was too stupid to know any-better.

So you Libs complained for 8 years about the lies and incompetence, and then you elected a liar, and a incompetent. My question is, was that on purpose ?
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

Fenton said:
The people that put these criminals and incompetents into power need just accept their outright complicity and apologize.

There are going to be countless people stepping forward to give their personal account of harassment and so far the number of people targeted by the investigation has risen to over 80 people, who will under threat of prosecution offer up massive amounts of testimony that will directly implicate WH staff and administration officials.

Tom Brokaw. the talent-less hack, said this was no where near as damaging as Watergate, because Watergate was a direct attack on Constitutional liberty. What a lunatic.


This is going to find it's way to the WH, to Obama, I promise, as his only defense is he was too stupid to know any-better.

So you Libs complained for 8 years about the lies and incompetence, and then you elected a liar, and a incompetent. My question is, was that on purpose ?
Click to expand...

Sounds like Tom Brokaw is an intelligent man, this scandal doesn't involve President Obama.:cool:

Did IRS chief really visit White House 157 times? – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

More than 50 of Douglas Shulman's scheduled visits are described as "health care meetings" or "health care reform meetings," according to the visitor logs. Arrival times are only listed for 11 of his visits, and it's not unusual for a person to appear on the visitor logs - which are derived from Secret Service clearance lists - without actually having visited the White House. The majority of the visits were set to be held in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, which houses office suites for administration aides.​
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

pbrauer said:
...Here is a link by a liberal that takes the DC story to task, her analysis maintains he went to the complex 11 times between 2009 and 2012....
Click to expand...

Yes, she also said:

That does not mean that he did not go to other meetings, only that the White House records do not show he went to the 157 meetings he was granted Secret Service clearance to attend.
Click to expand...
(your link)

So IOW we just don't know...try again
 
Re: Former IRS chief Shulman reportedly visited White House at least 157 times

Dickieboy said:
Yes, she also said:


(your link)

So IOW we just don't know...try again
Click to expand...
I am confident there is nothing there. Despite what many people on the right say, President Obama is not a stupid man, he would engage in something so idiotic. He would lose alot if it we fund he entered into such a conspiracy. Have Rep. Darrell Issa call Douglas Shulman back to nail this all down.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom