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Thread: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    How is ticketing people for break the law fraud and extortion?
    Like I said above, the cameras do not tcket people, they tcket cars, and for me that opens up a big problems. As the car owner, it becomes your responsibility to prove your innocence. Our judiciary system is based on the opposite. In a family with a number of drivers, you may not remember who was driving the car at that time, and even so, shoud you be forced to testify against a family member. The camera, the locality, nor the camera owner, however, are not compelled to prove your guilt.

    There is also the matter of allowing private companies to do the policing, especially for profit.

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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Like I said above, the cameras do not tcket people, they tcket cars, and for me that opens up a big problems. As the car owner, it becomes your responsibility to prove your innocence. Our judiciary system is based on the opposite. In a family with a number of drivers, you may not remember who was driving the car at that time, and even so, shoud you be forced to testify against a family member. The camera, the locality, nor the camera owner, however, are not compelled to prove your guilt.

    There is also the matter of allowing private companies to do the policing, especially for profit.
    You aren't forced to testify against a family member. It's your choice. And even then, YOU, as the car owner, are responsible for paying the ticket. A ticket issued for a red-light camera violation isn't a moving violation. The owner of the car is responsible for paying the ticket. You either ran it yourself or lent your car to someone who broke the law with it...both of which are your responsibility.

    As for proving your guilt? You are automatically guilty because you own the car. Your responsibility. Your ticket.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Nonsense, you get to face your accuser. I've seen it. The photo evidence is right there and clear. At least here in Beaverton, the camera system even records the exact phase of the light when you entered the intersection.

    What is it with folks wanting an excuse for running red lights? No, it's not acceptable, ever, and you should be fined each and every time and the fines should be punitive.
    I don't think you understand what it means to face one's accuser. That photo evidence is what is known as prima facie evidence.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    I don't have time to find the reference but I remember reading about someone who successfully fought their town's red light camera policy by citing stats that "rolling right on red", the typical red light camera violation, were not significant causes of accidents while the red light cameras significantly increased rear end collisions.

    My real issue with them is that depending on how they're implemented they might be impossible to defend against. As long as the ticket is sent quickly enough after the incident that you can recall the details and video is provided so that you can determine whether or not you had a valid reason to blow the light I don't have a problem with them, provided the locality isn't monkeying with light timings.

    My town issues parking tickets based on photos taken by paid volunteers. In the age of photoshop I have some very big issues with that.
    Please share with us a "valid reason" for blowing a red light.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    As long as they penalize the DRIVER, and don't assume the owner is driving, then I have no issue with them. Some places go after the driver, some go after the vehicle owner. We have them here, and they go after the vehicle owner, and make it a lesser penalty precisely because they cannot meet the higher standard of proof for an actual driving offense that would go on people's driving records.

    For all their talk of safety, the fact that they do not make sure they penalize the actual driver... and when you observe how absolutely giddy they get when they talk about the revenue... makes all their talk about safety-first a bunch of BS jaw jackin'.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You aren't forced to testify against a family member. It's your choice. And even then, YOU, as the car owner, are responsible for paying the ticket. A ticket issued for a red-light camera violation isn't a moving violation. The owner of the car is responsible for paying the ticket. You either ran it yourself or lent your car to someone who broke the law with it...both of which are your responsibility.

    As for proving your guilt? You are automatically guilty because you own the car. Your responsibility. Your ticket.
    Repugnant.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You aren't forced to testify against a family member. It's your choice. And even then, YOU, as the car owner, are responsible for paying the ticket. A ticket issued for a red-light camera violation isn't a moving violation. The owner of the car is responsible for paying the ticket. You either ran it yourself or lent your car to someone who broke the law with it...both of which are your responsibility.

    As for proving your guilt? You are automatically guilty because you own the car. Your responsibility. Your ticket.
    A red light violation is a moving violation, at least in Virginia and accordingto Wiki. I'd bet the same holds true in Illinois. A movng violation is a trffic violation while the car is in motion. How do you run a red light in a stationary vehicle? And you are not guilty of a violation because you own the car. The driver is.

    In this country, you are never automatically guilty. You are innocent till proven guilty. That applies to murder, that applies to auto related violations. That applies to spitting on the sidewalk. It's the basis of our judiciary system,

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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    In this country, you are never automatically guilty. You are innocent till proven guilty. That applies to murder, that applies to auto related violations. That applies to spitting on the sidewalk. It's the basis of our judiciary system,
    You're not supposed to be automatically guilty of anything, but due to mindless rationalizations such as some have displayed in this thread, we keep losing that benchmark bit by bit.

    The notion that the owner of a vehicle is somehow responsible for the actions of the driver if the driver is different is simply repugnant and flies in the face of everything our society and justice system is supposed to be about. Might as well just randomly assign penalties to people for what they did without actually getting caught. Same difference.
    Last edited by radcen; 05-27-13 at 02:35 PM.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Please share with us a "valid reason" for blowing a red light.
    To make way for emergency vehicles.
    Rushing someone to the hospital.

    Those are just two that instantly come to mind.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    To make way for emergency vehicles.
    Rushing someone to the hospital.

    Those are just two that instantly come to mind.
    Some people here have gotten tickets for making a right turn on a red, and that's legal. Yet, the camera doesn't know the difference and the mindless bureaucrat reviewing the ticket doesn't care because there's no proof that you were actually doing something legal.

    How about the person sitting in the intersection waiting to make a left turn. They can't because of traffic, so they do have to wait until the opposing traffic stops because their light turned red. The left-turn car is perfectly legal as they were in the intersection when the light changed... but the camera doesn't know the difference and the mindless bureaucrat reviewing the ticket doesn't care because there's no proof that you were actually doing something legal.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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