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Thread: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

  1. #31
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    There's something I just realized about a claim made in the title of the article. “System made $71 Million”

    What does it mean to “make” money?

    In legitimate business, money is made by producing and selling goods and/or services that are more valuable than what it cost to provide them. People and equipment working to turn less valuable materials into more valuable products are what create wealth. If a company spends a million dollars in materials, labor, and other expenses, to produce products which it is able to sell for two billion dollars, then it has created a million dollars in wealth.

    So, how did Chicago's red-light camera system “make” seventy-one million dollars? It didn't. It just took it. It created a situation in which otherwise diligent motorists are tricked into running red lights, caught them doing so on camera, and fined them. It didn't create seventy-million dollars worth of new wealth. It didn't even create a penny of new wealth. It just took wealth from others, leaving those from whom it was taken poorer, in total, by exactly the same as the amount by which it thus enriched itself.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Florida quietly shortened yellow light standards & lengths, resulting in more red light camera tickets for you

    A subtle, but significant tweak to Florida's rules regarding traffic signals has allowed local cities and counties to shorten yellow light intervals, resulting in millions of dollars in additional red light camera fines.

    The 10 News Investigators discovered the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) quietly changed the state's policy on yellow intervals in 2011, reducing the minimum below federal recommendations. The rule change was followed by engineers, both from FDOT and local municipalities, collaborating to shorten the length of yellow lights at key intersections, specifically those with red light cameras (RLCs).

    While yellow light times were reduced by mere fractions of a second, research indicates a half-second reduction in the interval can double the number of RLC citations -- and the revenue they create.
    That's bull****. Not directed at you, but at the information here. Among politicians, Diogenes would have a really.tough.time.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    The ship has long sailed on the bull**** argument
    absolutely

    it's all about safety

    we're only looking out for YOU

    and looking out for YOU can be expensive

    LOL!

    watch your language

  4. #34
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    There's something I just realized about a claim made in the title of the article. “System made $71 Million”

    What does it mean to “make” money?

    In legitimate business, money is made by producing and selling goods and/or services that are more valuable than what it cost to provide them. People and equipment working to turn less valuable materials into more valuable products are what create wealth. If a company spends a million dollars in materials, labor, and other expenses, to produce products which it is able to sell for two billion dollars, then it has created a million dollars in wealth.

    So, how did Chicago's red-light camera system “make” seventy-one million dollars? It didn't. It just took it. It created a situation in which otherwise diligent motorists are tricked into running red lights, caught them doing so on camera, and fined them. It didn't create seventy-million dollars worth of new wealth. It didn't even create a penny of new wealth. It just took wealth from others, leaving those from whom it was taken poorer, in total, by exactly the same as the amount by which it thus enriched itself.
    If you're going to argue semantics, I'd point out that no business "makes" money. They just move it around. Treasury "makes" the money.

    Or maybe there's something of substance to talk about instead.
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  5. #35
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million Last Year | CNS News

    more from the ig:

    there is "little evidence that the overarching program strategy, guidelines, or appropriate metrics are being used to ensure the RLC program is being executed to the best benefit of the city or the general public”

    there is a “lack of basic record keeping for a program that costs tens of millions of dollars a year and generates tens of millions more in revenue"

    those ticketed are charged $100 each
    I recall some advice George Will gave to his daughter and revealed on TV years ago. Paraphrasing: He told her that red lights don't mean what they used to and she should be overly careful at intersections.

    A story I recall from a guy in Helsinki... he was coming into an intersection and the light went from green to amber and he was on the late side of amber so he stopped. The car behind him didn't and he got nudged from behind. When he got out of the car the guy who hit him said... WTF'd you stop for... it was fresh red!

    I don't like the cameras and like almost all things government... it's about the money. Another way to strip people of it.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I recall some advice George Will gave to his daughter and revealed on TV years ago. Paraphrasing: He told her that red lights don't mean what they used to and she should be overly careful at intersections.

    A story I recall from a guy in Helsinki... he was coming into an intersection and the light went from green to amber and he was on the late side of amber so he stopped. The car behind him didn't and he got nudged from behind. When he got out of the car the guy who hit him said... WTF'd you stop for... it was fresh red!

    I don't like the cameras and like almost all things government... it's about the money. Another way to strip people of it.
    Safety Evaluation of Red-Light Cameras–Executive Summary - FHWA-HRT-05-049
    Red Light Cameras save ~$40,000 in accidents per year. A red light camera costs more than $100,000 to install and operate. (presumably per year). It's fairly obvious that the cameras cost the public more than they save, especially considering that almost all evidence shows that extending yellow lights produces better results and costs essentially nothing.

    Red Light cameras appear to be a scheme between private companies and local municipalities to fleece the public. Not that this is a huge surprise. We all know towns and stretches of roads that are designed to give tickets. But something should be done about it.

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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I recall some advice George Will gave to his daughter and revealed on TV years ago. Paraphrasing: He told her that red lights don't mean what they used to and she should be overly careful at intersections.

    A story I recall from a guy in Helsinki... he was coming into an intersection and the light went from green to amber and he was on the late side of amber so he stopped. The car behind him didn't and he got nudged from behind. When he got out of the car the guy who hit him said... WTF'd you stop for... it was fresh red!

    I don't like the cameras and like almost all things government... it's about the money. Another way to strip people of it.
    Safety Evaluation of Red-Light Cameras–Executive Summary - FHWA-HRT-05-049
    Red Light Cameras save ~$40,000 in accidents per year. A red light camera costs more than $100,000 to install and operate. (presumably per year). It's fairly obvious that the cameras cost the public more than they save, especially considering that almost all evidence shows that extending yellow lights produces better results and costs essentially nothing.

    Red Light cameras appear to be a scheme between private companies and local municipalities to fleece the public. Not that this is a huge surprise. We all know towns and stretches of roads that are designed to give tickets. But something should be done about it. 1 in 10,000 Americans die every year in auto accidents. Traffic laws designed primarily for the purpose of raising revenue should be illegal,

  8. #38
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Safety Evaluation of Red-Light Cameras–Executive Summary - FHWA-HRT-05-049
    Red Light Cameras save ~$40,000 in accidents per year. A red light camera costs more than $100,000 to install and operate. (presumably per year). It's fairly obvious that the cameras cost the public more than they save, especially considering that almost all evidence shows that extending yellow lights produces better results and costs essentially nothing.

    Red Light cameras appear to be a scheme between private companies and local municipalities to fleece the public. Not that this is a huge surprise. We all know towns and stretches of roads that are designed to give tickets. But something should be done about it. 1 in 10,000 Americans die every year in auto accidents. Traffic laws designed primarily for the purpose of raising revenue should be illegal,
    Some tickets are collected quite by accident. Most are earned through carelessness and irresponsibility. I enjoy the fact that other motorists subsidize my police department and traffic courts. It's not that hard to remember to rock back at stop signs, right-turns-on-red, etc. Not difficult at all to recognize a stale green and be prepared to stop. And certainly not difficult to drive the speed limit.

    If people think they can get away with it or think the laws don't apply to them? Make 'em pay. I'm all for it.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Some tickets are collected quite by accident. Most are earned through carelessness and irresponsibility. I enjoy the fact that other motorists subsidize my police department and traffic courts. It's not that hard to remember to rock back at stop signs, right-turns-on-red, etc. Not difficult at all to recognize a stale green and be prepared to stop. And certainly not difficult to drive the speed limit.

    If people think they can get away with it or think the laws don't apply to them? Make 'em pay. I'm all for it.
    If the traffic laws are designed based on what is safe, then you have my full agreement. Unsafe driving should be penalized.

    But what about places where that's not true? For example you might have a 4 lane highway that inexplicably drops from 55 mph to 45mph. There's no reason for the drop, and police will sit at the border and give motorists tickets. This is the exception, not the rule. But it does happen.

    I think that any law or action the government takes should have a clearly discernible purpose. If you want to raise money, make the road toll. Charge everyone $1. Otherwise it turns it into a kind of tax lottery where 1 in a 400 motorists has to pay a $400 fine and the rest pay nothing.

  10. #40
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I have absolutely no problem with red-light cameras. If it's producing positive cash flow, that's good enough for me.
    I absolutely have a problem with not being able to face my accuser, which is why many states have found them unconstitutional.

    Especially when most of said cash for isn't even going to the state but to the private camera companies.
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