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Thread: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    You're an "end justifies the means" type of person and you're ok with legal safeguards against wrongful prosecution being tossed aside for an illusion of safety... and even more repugnant, expedient methods of generating taking money.
    Fixed it for you.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Nope. There's plenty of precedence. A ticket received because of a red-light camera violation does not count against one's driving record. It's in the same status as illegal parking, parking in a fire zone, parking in a no-parking zone, parking in a handicapped spot. Who knows who parked it there? The law doesn't care. The owner of the car pays the ticket or suffers the consequences.



    Misleading. Rear-end collisions are far less costly than 90-degree collisions and cause far less injury.



    Your opinion. And nope. These red-light cameras are installed at high-risk intersections, as they should be. The fact that they're catching drivers going through red lights is not evidence it's about revenue. The revenue it generates is a wonderful perk for catching jerks that run reds. 22% of all traffic accidents happen because people run red lights. That's something worth targeting, in my opinion.
    Who cares whether or not it counts against one's driving record? For the person making minimum wage, such an unjust fine represents a few days' wages.

    If they were really about safety, if it could be proved that they increased safety, then everytime somebody was injured at an intersection WITHOUT such a camera, a lawyer could argue negligence on the part of the city for NOT having such safety enhancements. And they would probably win.

    It's not about safety Maggie, or they would have them at every intersection. It's about greed and revenue. Greed, avarice and corrupt humans in government, nothing more.

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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Who cares whether or not it counts against one's driving record? For the person making minimum wage, such an unjust fine represents a few days' wages.

    If they were really about safety, if it could be proved that they increased safety, then everytime somebody was injured at an intersection WITHOUT such a camera, a lawyer could argue negligence on the part of the city for NOT having such safety enhancements. And they would probably win.

    It's not about safety Maggie, or they would have them at every intersection. It's about greed and revenue. Greed, avarice and corrupt humans in government, nothing more.
    If it was about greed and revenue, they'd have lots more of them.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    If it was about greed and revenue, they'd have lots more of them.
    That's rather the point Maggie. As was explained to me by 2 different police officers working with ATS, unless there is sufficient volume of traffic at a given intersection, the cameras are a losing proposition. They are very selective about which intersections are equipped. Volume of traffic is the biggest consideration, and camera placement is the other. At least here in Florida, the cameras must be placed on private property. They cannot be placed on public property. That may have changed lately, but that's how it was about 2 years ago.

    It's all about profit. An intersection with low volume will not be chosen because it does not generate the revenue.

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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    That's rather the point Maggie. As was explained to me by 2 different police officers working with ATS, unless there is sufficient volume of traffic at a given intersection, the cameras are a losing proposition. They are very selective about which intersections are equipped. Volume of traffic is the biggest consideration, and camera placement is the other. At least here in Florida, the cameras must be placed on private property. They cannot be placed on public property. That may have changed lately, but that's how it was about 2 years ago.

    It's all about profit. An intersection with low volume will not be chosen because it does not generate the revenue.
    Really? I've never heard of that. (Not disputing you, just never heard that. Never been to Florida, either.)

    Volume does mean a lot. Cost/benefit, of course.

    Here the city also put speed cameras on the interstate freeway through town. That, plus the red light cameras on city streets also double as speed cameras.

    About two years after they had all been installed there was a minor controversy because a local news station found out that not one single city-owned vehicle had been cited by any camera. Not one. The city claimed that all their drivers were that safe all the time. No way to disprove that, of course, but it doesn't sound right that there wouldn't be even one in a two year period considering the hundreds of vehicles the city owns.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Really? I've never heard of that. (Not disputing you, just never heard that. Never been to Florida, either.)

    Volume does mean a lot. Cost/benefit, of course.

    Here the city also put speed cameras on the interstate freeway through town. That, plus the red light cameras on city streets also double as speed cameras.

    About two years after they had all been installed there was a minor controversy because a local news station found out that not one single city-owned vehicle had been cited by any camera. Not one. The city claimed that all their drivers were that safe all the time. No way to disprove that, of course, but it doesn't sound right that there wouldn't be even one in a two year period considering the hundreds of vehicles the city owns.
    Yes, I've heard before that by some "stroke of luck" the city vehicles and those with comfy politicial relationships never show up in the crowd.

    As I say, my information is 2 years old now, but at that time camera placement here HAD to be on private property. I suppose because the cameras were owned and maintained by ATS. Because placement is so crucial to precise photos, it was frequently the point that prevented some installations. The ideal setup was 5 cameras on a typical 4 way intersection, but depending upon the exact details, they could sometimes get away with fewer cameras.

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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Yes, I've heard before that by some "stroke of luck" the city vehicles and those with comfy politicial relationships never show up in the crowd.

    As I say, my information is 2 years old now, but at that time camera placement here HAD to be on private property. I suppose because the cameras were owned and maintained by ATS. Because placement is so crucial to precise photos, it was frequently the point that prevented some installations. The ideal setup was 5 cameras on a typical 4 way intersection, but depending upon the exact details, they could sometimes get away with fewer cameras.
    Here it's a pretty safe bet that they can be positioned on public property as they're mounted on already-existing light and traffic signal poles. I presume the private company that runs the program is considered an agent of the city, and all they're officially doing is contract maintenance and administration, or something like that.

    Also here, they don't always do all directions of an intersection. Some have all, some have only one or two directions.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
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    No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Nope. There's plenty of precedence. A ticket received because of a red-light camera violation does not count against one's driving record. It's in the same status as illegal parking, parking in a fire zone, parking in a no-parking zone, parking in a handicapped spot. Who knows who parked it there? The law doesn't care. The owner of the car pays the ticket or suffers the consequences.



    Misleading. Rear-end collisions are far less costly than 90-degree collisions and cause far less injury.



    Your opinion. And nope. These red-light cameras are installed at high-risk intersections, as they should be. The fact that they're catching drivers going through red lights is not evidence it's about revenue. The revenue it generates is a wonderful perk for catching jerks that run reds. 22% of all traffic accidents happen because people run red lights. That's something worth targeting, in my opinion.
    Parking tickets aren't about safety. If RLC tickets were about safety the point would be to change the behavior of the driver. That should mean fining he driver - not the owner - and points.

    Most RLC tickets are people making rolling right on red, not people driving straight through the intersection. My understanding us that rolling right on red is not a significant safety hazard.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Parking tickets aren't about safety. If RLC tickets were about safety the point would be to change the behavior of the driver. That should mean fining he driver - not the owner - and points.

    Most RLC tickets are people making rolling right on red, not people driving straight through the intersection. My understanding us that rolling right on red is not a significant safety hazard.
    Some parking tickets most certainly are about safety. Parking in a fire zone comes to mind. But what difference does that make anyway? "You can only ticket my car if it's about safety." What??

    Even it were the case, I just see nothing wrong with a municipality saying, "You know what? We're going to raise revenue by ticketing people who break the law. Let's install RLCs at our busiest intersections."

    I find nothing to support your opinion that most RLC infractions represent rolling right turns. But what is the difference? If "punishment" is about deterrence, then you ticket people who break the law. Period. Ignoring scofflaws is a great way to create more scofflaws.
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Some parking tickets most certainly are about safety. Parking in a fire zone comes to mind. But what difference does that make anyway? "You can only ticket my car if it's about safety." What??

    Even it were the case, I just see nothing wrong with a municipality saying, "You know what? We're going to raise revenue by ticketing people who break the law. Let's install RLCs at our busiest intersections."

    I find nothing to support your opinion that most RLC infractions represent rolling right turns. But what is the difference? If "punishment" is about deterrence, then you ticket people who break the law. Period. Ignoring scofflaws is a great way to create more scofflaws.
    Interesting choice of words. The way you state it here... though I'm sure it's unintended... I agree with (though I would do it for real safety reasons as the profit motive is repugnant). The PEOPLE who break the law... who actually and literally and physically break the law... should be caught and punished. Allowing an otherwise licensed and/or legal driver to drive your car is not illegal. Period.

    ETA: Since you're still arguing that red light running equates to (some) parking tickets, and you've been arguing (sometimes, depending...) that revenue is a perfectly fine justification unto itself, does this mean that you are also arguing that ALL red light tickets (whether from a camera or from a flesh & blood LEO) should be civil infractions that do not count against a person's record? Same crime, same safety issue, ya know.
    Last edited by radcen; 05-31-13 at 10:57 AM.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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