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Thread: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

  1. #101
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Unlike others, apparently, I have no problem with profit.

    If you've never seen the end results of a truck running a red light while a young teen driver made the assumption that, since the light was red, he was safe to make a left turn in front of it, you've been missing something. Red light cameras save lives. That they make a profit is just an added bonus.
    I have no problem with profit that is made honestly and ethically. What you are defending is profit made from fraud and extortion.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  2. #102
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    How is ticketing people for break the law fraud and extortion?
    It is when it is done in conjunction with methods that are willfully intended to induce people to break the law who had no intention of doing so, and would not have broken the law without these methods having been used against them.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  3. #103
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You aren't forced to testify against a family member. It's your choice. And even then, YOU, as the car owner, are responsible for paying the ticket. A ticket issued for a red-light camera violation isn't a moving violation. The owner of the car is responsible for paying the ticket. You either ran it yourself or lent your car to someone who broke the law with it...both of which are your responsibility.

    As for proving your guilt? You are automatically guilty because you own the car. Your responsibility. Your ticket.
    This excuse is similar to a bull**** argument used in asset forfeiture*cases, where the charges are brought against a piece of property rather than against a human being, thus depriving the owner of that property of any opportunity for proper due process.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  4. #104
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    No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    In certain circumstances, it may be true that one wouldn't get a ticket for going through a red light to yield to emergency vehicles. You don't throw out a whole program because of those flukes. You cannot go through red lights to take someone to the hospital. You're right -- if your wife was having a baby and a copper stopped you for going through a light, he might just drive you to the hospital. Again, flukey doesn't make law.
    I never said you should throw out the program. I simply said that it needs to be implemented in such a way as to allow people to be able to defend their actions in court if they choose to. If its not - for example if the evidence is a still photo and not say a half minute of video or if the ticket comes six months after the fact - then the program should be modified or tossed.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  5. #105
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    There's something I just realized about a claim made in the title of the article. “System made $71 Million”

    What does it mean to “make” money?

    In legitimate business, money is made by producing and selling goods and/or services that are more valuable than what it cost to provide them. People and equipment working to turn less valuable materials into more valuable products are what create wealth. If a company spends a million dollars in materials, labor, and other expenses, to produce products which it is able to sell for two billion dollars, then it has created a million dollars in wealth.

    So, how did Chicago's red-light camera system “make” seventy-one million dollars? It didn't. It just took it. It created a situation in which otherwise diligent motorists are tricked into running red lights, caught them doing so on camera, and fined them. It didn't create seventy-million dollars worth of new wealth. It didn't even create a penny of new wealth. It just took wealth from others, leaving those from whom it was taken poorer, in total, by exactly the same as the amount by which it thus enriched itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    If you're going to argue semantics, I'd point out that no business "makes" money. They just move it around. Treasury "makes" the money.

    Or maybe there's something of substance to talk about instead.
    You're missing the point, entirely.

    Businesses do not make money by simply “moving money around”. Businesses make money by creating wealth. They take raw materials, and use them to create products that are more valuable than the materials, labor, and other expenses that went into producing them. They offer goods and services to consumers who will willingly pay more for these goods and services than what it costs the company to provide them. A good business transaction leaves both parties better off than before. The consumer receives a good or service which is more valuable to him than the money he had to pay to receive it, and the business gets more money in exchange for that good or service than it cost that business to provide it.

    The red light-camera scam does not create wealth. It only “makes” money by taking it from someone else, who gets nothing of positive value in return.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  6. #106
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    These cameras are often installed, maintained and monitored by private businesses, not the municipality.

    Remember this gem here:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/law-an...ffic-laws.html

    American Traffic Solutions (ATS), the Arizona-based company that enforces East Cleveland’s camera citations.
    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...165944476.html
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    There were, by most estimates, 500 Nazis in Charlottesville. One of them went homicidal. Not all Nazis are violent extremists. You are trying to rationalize your hatred and it's simply not rational.
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    as I noted, its better that 10 nutjobs get guns than one good person be wrongly disarmed.

  7. #107
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    People who whine about red light cameras are usually the ones who have the most difficulty obeying basic traffic laws.

    I really don't understand the difficulty here. When a light turns red, you stop. We've all known that since we were about four. Did something change along the way? Is there some sort of "get out of a red light free" card out there that I am not aware of?

    Also, if you start extending the yellow lights, that is just going to give more people license to run them.
    That's part of the problem. People don't account for different lengths of yellow timing. I always stop if I have time to safely stop without slamming on the brakes. I don't wait and say, oh... I can make it before it's red...

    Now this increase in rear end accidents...

    These people will eventually rear end someone. Probably better on a city street at 30 to 45 MPH, than at freeway speeds... And maybe they will stop tailgating...

  8. #108
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I drive a sportscar, low to the ground like all smaller cars. When following at legal distances for speed behind tall trucks, 18 wheelers in particular, I cannot see the redlight from my vantage point until I'm actually IN the box, in the intersection. I could not stop if I wanted to, because it is impossible for me to see the light. And in reality, I make it through the intersection behind the big truck, no problem.
    I fall back far enough that I can see the light in time.

    What's your hurry? I have the same issue in my WS6. Funny thing is, I tend to drive it slower than my sedan.

  9. #109
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    If they made the effort to ensure that the person actually driving the car was getting the ticket, this would be a valid point. They don't, so it's not. And they do have the technology (front photos of the driver instead of rear photos of just the car [how it's done here]), it's just a little more laborious, and well... we apparently can't bother ourselves with accuracy, can we?
    Well, if the owner of the car doesn't know who'e driving it and have them take responsibility, didn't report the car as stolen, and still has it...

    Sorry. no sympathy from me.

    Besides, most photos include the driver. You might be able to get out of the ticket in some jurisdictions, but isn't the judge going to want to know who was driving?

    Consider this too. If someone else is driving your car, it's your insurance that's responsible in case of an accident...

  10. #110
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    Re: No Evidence Chicago Red Light Cameras Based on Safety -- System Made $71 Million

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    I would also be more ready to accept the safety argument if the monetary proceeds didn't go straight to any LE agencies. It should go to the general fund, and distributed accordingly from there. Law enforcement should NEVER have a direct profit incentive.
    In my area, it does not go to the police.

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