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Thread: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

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    Re: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    And I know of cases where guns saved lives, foiled a robbery, and prevented innocent lives from being taken

    But what I said though is that it is wrong in principal to deny people the ability to protect themselves or even so offering no armed protection against an armed robber via an armed guard.
    Yes, sometimes it saves lives, and sometimes it costs lives. You have presented no evidence that one outweighs the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, sometimes it saves lives, and sometimes it costs lives. You have presented no evidence that one outweighs the other.
    And neither have you. Yet you want to change the current rights of people in this country because of your opinion. Why do you feel your opinion is justification to remove rights of people to carry firearms?

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    Re: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, sometimes it saves lives, and sometimes it costs lives. You have presented no evidence that one outweighs the other.
    Which is why I argued that it is wrong in principal, I have it bolded now instead of italicized as before. We have reports of guns stopping crimes and protecting innocent lives, there are also reports where the gun on the scene may have had things work out worse. There isn't any evidence, to my knowledge, that proves guns are a danger or an absolute help. But in principal is it wrong to keep people unarmed and prevent them from defending themselves against armed robbers.

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    Re: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    And neither have you.
    Right, which is why I make no claims about whether being armed will result in more or less people being shot. You, on the other, have made claims even though you admit you have no evidence to support your claim

    Yet you want to change the current rights of people in this country because of your opinion. Why do you feel your opinion is justification to remove rights of people to carry firearms?
    You are lying.

    Please quote where I have called for any rights to be limited or admit that you lied.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Which is why I argued that it is wrong in principal, I have it bolded now instead of italicized as before. We have reports of guns stopping crimes and protecting innocent lives, there are also reports where the gun on the scene may have had things work out worse. There isn't any evidence, to my knowledge, that proves guns are a danger or an absolute help. But in principal is it wrong to keep people unarmed and prevent them from defending themselves against armed robbers.
    You are still wrong. Since the business owner does not know the intent of the robbers before the crime, there is no way to know if allowing his employees will increase or decrease the risk of harm.

    IOW, your principle is nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Which is why I argued that it is wrong in principal, I have it bolded now instead of italicized as before. We have reports of guns stopping crimes and protecting innocent lives, there are also reports where the gun on the scene may have had things work out worse. There isn't any evidence, to my knowledge, that proves guns are a danger or an absolute help. But in principal is it wrong to keep people unarmed and prevent them from defending themselves against armed robbers.


    Extremely well-said.

    The knowlege that staff are armed tends to discourage robbery in the first place.

    I've repeatedly brought up Biggerstaff's, the store in the 'hood that cashes checks and has probably a hundred grand cash in the register... and has NEVER been robbed in sixty years, because the staff all wear Glocks on their hips in plain sight, and have a shotgun behind the lunch counter.

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    Re: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You are still wrong. Since the business owner does not know the intent of the robbers before the crime, there is no way to know if allowing his employees will increase or decrease the risk of harm.

    IOW, your principle is nonsense.
    So it's not wrong in principal to de-arm people and prevent them from defending themselves in the event of an armed robbery? In such a case you are at the complete mercy of a robber, they may choose to use their weapon or not, but in the end you are powerless and rely on the idea that they won't use it if they get what they want. Preventing people from defending themselves is wrong, in principal, and just because the business owner doesn't have complete data either way doesn't make it right. In your view what is the proper principal? After all, if you say that mine is wrong then what is the right one?
    Last edited by digsbe; 05-27-13 at 05:18 PM.

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    Re: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    So it's not wrong in principal to de-arm people and prevent them from defending themselves in the event of an armed robbery? In such a case you are at the complete mercy of a robber, they may choose to use their weapon or not, but in the end you are powerless and rely on the idea that they won't use it if they get what they want. Preventing people from self defense is wrong, in principal, and just because the business owner doesn't have complete data either way doesn't make it right. In your view what is the proper principal? After all, if you say that mine is wrong then what is the right one?

    When someone sticks a gun in your face, they have lost the "benefit of the doubt" as to their intentions.

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    Re: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    So it's not wrong in principal to de-arm people and prevent them from defending themselves in the event of an armed robbery? In such a case you are at the complete mercy of a robber, they may choose to use their weapon or not, but in the end you are powerless and rely on the idea that they won't use it if they get what they want. Preventing people from self defense is wrong, in principal, and just because the business owner doesn't have complete data either way doesn't make it right. In your view what is the proper principal? After all, if you say that mine is wrong then what is the right one?
    If allowing them to work armed increases the risk that innocent people will be harmed, then there is nothing "principled" about allowing that.

    There has been no evidence posted which shows that allowing them to worked armed decreases the risk that innocents will be harmed.

    IOW, my principle is that policy should be based on fact, not emotionally driven supposition.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Victims shot after drugs handed over at Tennessee pharmacy, DA says

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    If allowing them to work armed increases the risk that innocent people will be harmed, then there is nothing "principled" about allowing that.
    Big word here is if. Show me evidence where this is the case.
    There has been no evidence posted which shows that allowing them to worked armed decreases the risk that innocents will be harmed.
    No evidence has been posted either that says when people are armed there is a decreased risk that innocents will be harmed. I acknowledged that, I also stated that all we really have to go on are reports where guns helped or didn't help. To my knowledge there is no reliable study conducted that contrasts being armed with prevention of people being harmed in an armed robbery to those unarmed in similar situations. Absence of evidence is not evidence. The precedence is that people have a Constitutional right to be armed and defend themselves, to remove such ability without evidence that it is a beneficial policy is not rational.
    IOW, my principle is that policy should be based on fact, not emotionally driven supposition.
    Seems like we have the same policy then. But as stated, there isn't facts that would support the notion that being armed, in the event of an armed robbery, results in more innocent people being harmed or in more deaths. In principal people should be allowed to defend themselves from robbers, especially if they are armed. It's wrong to subjugate people to the mercy of a robber and hope that they choose to not harm anyone if they get what they want. Nothing emotional about that.

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