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Thread: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

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    Re: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Gawd we can play this game all day long and well into the night, MG. As far as peace loving Muslims, I say it's TIME TO STAND UP AND BE COUNTED!!!!!!!!!! If you say nothing, to me you're complicit, or at least tacitly to blame!


    Tim-
    Yes, people keep saying this, but I no longer take it seriously.

    There are lots of them. One of the more prominent is an Afghan MP named Malalai Joya. She has been a vocal and outspoken critic of the Taliban...and of our allies, the "Northern Alliance" (who are ideologically identical to the Taliban...except currently obedient to Western demands).

    She is a committed secularist and feminist, who has literally risked her life standing up for Afghan women, children, minorities, and on and on.

    She's currently in hiding, I believe...because her criticism of a fellow MP (again...our friends and allies)means some now want her dead for speaking up.

    So people like her exist, and there are a lot of them...however, Joya has gotten relatively little attention here...because her opposition to tyranny places her on the wrong side of us.

    How ironic, yes?
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

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    Re: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Does it have to play a part for it to be terror?
    Didn't you say in post number 73:
    Naw they use guns to up guns and kill children...
    in response to SgtRock's posting in number 61:
    Right because Christians here in America and in Europe are hacking people to death and blowing up sporting events for Jesus...
    You obviously were accusing Christians of killing the Newtown children. Don't now try to claim innocence.

    BTW, if you really want to compare the history of Christianity and try to claim that it is as violent as Islam, be my guest. I don't buy it.

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    Re: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

    London will ultimately be the proving ground for the Muslim/Islamist radical blame game for terrorism.

    In 10-20 years, Muslims will outnumber Christians and Whites in the U.K. Then, we'll see. Will the Islamic community step forward and defend Christians, Hindus, etc, and the white English community?

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    Re: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

    This topic is extremely frustrating because I find there is so much disingenuousness on the subject because it makes people uncomfortable.

    Let me state for the record that I'm an ardent secularist, my mentor is a Saudi exile, and I'm a strong supporter of democratic movements in the Middle East--from Bahrain to Syria. But for the love of god can we stop pretending that Islam is relatively comparable to Judaism or Christianity in terms of its influence, impact, and levels of adherence.

    As a Jew I'm always amazed at this willful obfuscation. The Torah, Talmud, and Midrash are palpably violent, draconian, and primitive codes of law and morality. However is Judaism violent? No, because Judaism went on a different historical arc that cut the tether to the ancient interpretations and practition of its faith. The diaspora and legal prohibitions forced a reliance on literacy, while perpetual minority status dampened the legislative aggressiveness of rabbinical courts and interpretation. Lack of a physical Israel shifted theological discussions away from law, justice, politics, and war, and toward familial and social considerations. I could go on and on.

    The reason I bring it up is that Islam and Judaism are actually fairly similar religions, moreso than Christianity in that the point of both faiths in their original and orthodox form is to proscribe a code for living and governing every facet of life from cradle to government to the grave. So what is the difference between the two faiths today?

    I think it has everything to do with the obvious fact that Islam has never become separated from the state, it is a holistic religion in a part of the world that never had the kind of confrontation with the enlightenment that Christianity had. And quite frankly Christianity as a fairly malleable religion (it does not prescribe rules for government, life, or law) was probably one of the best faiths in terms of digesting that fight. But Islam did not and has not.

    The orthodoxy of Islam is generally unreformed and this remains a serious problem since it is less amenable to liberalization and reform. Why? Because how do you reform a divinely directed legal code? I think it is huge problem to try and equivocate because it obscures very real and very significant problems and discussions.

    Violence from the Islamic world is not a circumscribed phenomena. Sure you may 'only' have a few hundred thousand militants, terrorists, and paramilitary affiliates across the globe. But you have hundreds of millions of sympathizers (all at varying degrees) and an obvious sociopolitical worldview that is in direct conflict with the forms of liberalism that have taken root in Europe, America, South America, and broad sections of Africa and East Asia.

    Pretending that there isn't an ongoing conflict between Islam and modernity and that this conflict isn't producing violence at unique levels is nothing more than willful denial.

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    Re: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    London will ultimately be the proving ground for the Muslim/Islamist radical blame game for terrorism.

    In 10-20 years, Muslims will outnumber Christians and Whites in the U.K. Then, we'll see. Will the Islamic community step forward and defend Christians, Hindus, etc, and the white English community?
    Why would the 'whiteness' matter? If the premise is that you have a problem with a religious takeover why do you insist on using racial terminology? The problem is the defense of secularism and liberal values. Skin color is and should be irrelevant.

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    Re: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    Yes, people keep saying this, but I no longer take it seriously.

    There are lots of them. One of the more prominent is an Afghan MP named Malalai Joya. She has been a vocal and outspoken critic of the Taliban...and of our allies, the "Northern Alliance" (who are ideologically identical to the Taliban...except currently obedient to Western demands).

    She is a committed secularist and feminist, who has literally risked her life standing up for Afghan women, children, minorities, and on and on.

    She's currently in hiding, I believe...because her criticism of a fellow MP (again...our friends and allies)means some now want her dead for speaking up.

    So people like her exist, and there are a lot of them...however, Joya has gotten relatively little attention here...because her opposition to tyranny places her on the wrong side of us.

    How ironic, yes?
    She hasn't received much attention because she is an Afghan MP. In the context of a planets worth of news that does not rank very highly. Fawzia Koofi who has been very critical of ISAF did a book tour in the US and had an appearance on the Daily Show because she wrote a book and she is saying she will run for President in 2014. This aroused attention and garnered interest. Jumping to conspiratorial explanations rarely pays off.

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    Re: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    This topic is extremely frustrating because I find there is so much disingenuousness on the subject because it makes people uncomfortable.

    Let me state for the record that I'm an ardent secularist, my mentor is a Saudi exile, and I'm a strong supporter of democratic movements in the Middle East--from Bahrain to Syria. But for the love of god can we stop pretending that Islam is relatively comparable to Judaism or Christianity in terms of its influence, impact, and levels of adherence.

    As a Jew I'm always amazed at this willful obfuscation. The Torah, Talmud, and Midrash are palpably violent, draconian, and primitive codes of law and morality. However is Judaism violent? No, because Judaism went on a different historical arc that cut the tether to the ancient interpretations and practition of its faith. The diaspora and legal prohibitions forced a reliance on literacy, while perpetual minority status dampened the legislative aggressiveness of rabbinical courts and interpretation. Lack of a physical Israel shifted theological discussions away from law, justice, politics, and war, and toward familial and social considerations. I could go on and on.

    The reason I bring it up is that Islam and Judaism are actually fairly similar religions, moreso than Christianity in that the point of both faiths in their original and orthodox form is to proscribe a code for living and governing every facet of life from cradle to government to the grave. So what is the difference between the two faiths today?

    I think it has everything to do with the obvious fact that Islam has never become separated from the state, it is a holistic religion in a part of the world that never had the kind of confrontation with the enlightenment that Christianity had. And quite frankly Christianity as a fairly malleable religion (it does not prescribe rules for government, life, or law) was probably one of the best faiths in terms of digesting that fight. But Islam did not and has not.

    The orthodoxy of Islam is generally unreformed and this remains a serious problem since it is less amenable to liberalization and reform. Why? Because how do you reform a divinely directed legal code? I think it is huge problem to try and equivocate because it obscures very real and very significant problems and discussions.

    Violence from the Islamic world is not a circumscribed phenomena. Sure you may 'only' have a few hundred thousand militants, terrorists, and paramilitary affiliates across the globe. But you have hundreds of millions of sympathizers (all at varying degrees) and an obvious sociopolitical worldview that is in direct conflict with the forms of liberalism that have taken root in Europe, America, South America, and broad sections of Africa and East Asia.

    Pretending that there isn't an ongoing conflict between Islam and modernity and that this conflict isn't producing violence at unique levels is nothing more than willful denial.
    Could it be that the more conservative and traditionalists in the Islamic world are facing a culture shock and are trying to isolate themselves away from the west and modernity, but it cannot due to the globalization and the internets ability to open up the world?

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    Re: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    Could it be that the more conservative and traditionalists in the Islamic world are facing a culture shock and are trying to isolate themselves away from the west and modernity, but it cannot due to the globalization and the internets ability to open up the world?
    That is definitely happening, but I think that we have a really bad habit of pretending as though this is just a small segment of the population. It isn't just a few thousand members of the Ulema and their families, it is much broader portions of society that adhere to these beliefs or endorse this backlash.

    Once again though I firmly support democratic movements in these countries and still have hopes for the future of Egypt.

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    Re: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Increasing crime rate among immigrant families within these European countries.
    is that diffrent to other regions like North America, aussie etc?
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: 'Soldier beheaded' in Woolwich machete attack: latest

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    That is definitely happening, but I think that we have a really bad habit of pretending as though this is just a small segment of the population. It isn't just a few thousand members of the Ulema and their families, it is much broader portions of society that adhere to these beliefs or endorse this backlash.

    Once again though I firmly support democratic movements in these countries and still have hopes for the future of Egypt.
    But is it true that a large part of Indonesia's population Islamic? You never hear unrest coming from there? Are they more accepting of secularism, or is it somthing different.

    Islam is the second largest religious faith and I don't believe all Muslims live the Middle East.

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