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Thread: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

  1. #341
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    I'd expect more conservative groups to be investigated
    absolutely

    that's why the irs apologized

    LOL!

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    nonsense, the irs didn't even try

    groups "with names including words like progress or progressive" were "given a pass"

    usatoday above



    you're defending an agency that has already, a dozen days to sunday, admitted its wrongdoing

    AP: IRS apologizes for inappropriate targeting of conservatives

    at this point it's a question of character

    cuz if the irs has more integrity than you...
    It is possible to disagree with someone without having to attack their character. just FYI

    I have not ever defended the manner in which the IRS generated the keywords in the BOLO. However, saying they used inappropriate criteria to determine which groups to investigate does not mean that groups were improperly investigated. These groups and many others deserved to be investigated.

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    does not mean that groups were improperly investigated
    not according to the irs

    AP: IRS apologizes for targeting conservatives

    not according to the president

    USAToday: Obama calls IRS targeting of certain groups 'outrageous'

    not according to the doj

    it's a question of character

    these groups and many others deserved to be investigated
    they were

    new target of investigation: DOJ opens criminal probe into IRS - The Hill

    because you know where stonewalling leads

    Congressman Lynch: If IRS Continues to Dodge Questions, There Will Be Special Prosecutor | Fox Nation

    everyone's watching
    Last edited by The Prof; 05-27-13 at 02:55 PM.

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    It is possible to disagree with someone without having to attack their
    character. just FYI

    I have not ever defended the manner in which the IRS generated the keywords in the BOLO. However, saying they used inappropriate criteria to determine which groups to investigate does not mean that groups were improperly investigated. These groups and many others deserved to be investigated.
    Well then you folks should have nothing to worry about.

    It's all so innocent, a huge misunderstanding and you guys should applaud the apointment of a special prosecutor because there is nothing to hide what so ever.

    We've heard your mitigations and your justifications.

    Now why don't we just wait for the people who DO KNOW whats going on to testify under oath.

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    That's an entirely different issue. The Senate finance committee was investigating how 501(c)(4) groups abuse the tax code to launder money into politics. Lois Lerner went in front of Levin and McCain, and somehow failed to mention any of this.
    Also failed to answer in the House, I believe.
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    or c. certain groups are trying to make an issue out of the most benign things and organizing facts to meet their arguments (see also, Salem Witch Trials)
    So you think that targeting groups for IRS scrutiny based on ideological leanings is an appropriate way to conduct the government, and that agencies like the IRS are above congressional oversight?

    Again, the issue is about determination letters. Now, drawing on my background as a CPA (earlier in my career), you can self declare and never have to ask the IRS anything, but you are responsible for carrying on your affairs in a matter consistent with the qualification. Alternatively, as with any questionable tax position, tax payers seek a IRS Determination Letter. They present the facts to the IRS and ask for their judgment. They want the Determination Letter to take to their donors; they need the Determination Letter because their application is not a slam dunk; they wait for their Determination Letter because getting one from the IRS is a difficult, labor intensive process.

    The problem with groups with a substantial political focus is they are questionable for 501(c)(4) status. In fact, by the letter of the law, they do not qualify because they have to be exclusively social welfare, with no political component. Fortunately, for these groups, when the regs were written, they relaxed "exclusively" substituting the "primarily" standard, which opened the door for political activity.
    Wait a minute....That isn't what your own article provided said....It said...

    "501(c)4

    May engage in political activities, as long as these activities do not become their primary purpose

    CAN Endorse Candidates..."

    So, you even seem to be mistaken here...

    If these groups stuck to the social welfare aspect of their jobs and stayed out of the political side, the IRS determination would not be necessary and their would be no controversy. The fact that these are controversial groups (from a 501(c)(4) qualification status) made this controversial.
    Wrong. As I showed above they are allowed to engage in political activity as long as that is not their primary purpose. What made this controversial is that Obama supporter within the IRS made it their mission during a campaign season to hinder these groups rights, hoping to effect the outcome of an election. That sir is criminal.

    The political groups liked the 501(c)(4) status because they do not have to disclose donors. The perceived uneven application to conservative groups is largely de facto: 1) The vast majority of political groups formed in the 2009-2011 time frame were Tea Party groups....
    Prove it...The IG report was inconclusive in that aspect.

    and their focus was hardly a-political.
    Doesn't have to be, re read your own posted article.

    It was clear they were 'tweeners"
    Not familiar with what you mean by "tweeners"....

    if they qualified, they would barely qualify...
    What does the content of any particular groups prayers have to do with qualifying?

    2) many liberal groups are actually social welfare groups first with a political component second... they are advocating for a cause, not a party. Groups like Green Peace or the Sierra Club (which were already formed... so this does apply to them), are more typical of progressive groups... they clearly advocate a social position ahead of a political position (which firmly qualifies them as a 501(c)(4)). It is easier to qualify a social group, then a political one.
    How many conservatives have the Sierra Club, or Green Peace donated to, or advocated for? If you truly believe this, it is either naive, or willingly dishonest. In either case, it was pointed out that liberal groups in the same time frame applying were rushed through, and in one case we know of retro active status was granted in less than a month.....So, yeah, this comparison is blown out of the water at this point.

    Just wondering though, would you be so dismissive if hypothetically, Romney had won, and it was revealed that the IRS was doing this sort of thing during the campaign to progressive groups?

    Religious groups would generally apply as a 501(c)(3) organization so that donor contributions were tax deductible. They could only have this status if they had NO political component. If they engaged at all in politics, or advocated political positions from the pulpit, they could get "kicked-down" to 501(c)(4) status. Religious groups have a bad habit of wanting to engage in politics and wanting to tell their constituencies how they should vote in the name of God... (their on sinners using the Lord's name to their political vein on both sides of the aisle... but the evangelicals, at least during the Bush years, often crossed the line)
    Evangelicals in your eyes are the most egregious at violating that status? Maybe you have missed Rainbow PUSH, or Reverend Al, or even this guy....



    Obviously, I would change out one word in that statement to make it true.
    Of course you would...Because the splinter you point out in my eye, ignores the log in your own.

    BTW... when you are the attorney for the highest ranking official in the controversy (Lois Lerner) and have political leaders saying irresponsible things like '..someone needs to jail, it would be mal-practice for her attorney to let her testify. This whole issue is already out of control (see also, Salem witch trials) .... she can always testify letter, but can never take her words back.
    I am no attorney, but I think Trey Gowdy was correct ....

    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Very well stated, although you can't get downgraded from 501(c)(3) to 501(c)(4). If you're denied 501(c)(3) based on excess political interaction then you're barred from seeking 501(c)(4). But your post is spot on.

    And both sides do it, but not to the same extent. Conservatives accounted for 90% of non-disclosed donor spending in 2010, and 85% in 2012. In contrast Liberals accounted for 8% and 11% respectively.
    2012 Outside Spending, by Group | OpenSecrets
    Thank you. I did step out of my knowledge base with that one. Usually, if challenged by the IRS to characterize yourself as something and they do not agree, they may characterized you as something less favorable (what you should have been characterized as in the first place) and you are free to accept or challenge in tax court.

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    It is possible to disagree with someone without having to attack their character. just FYI

    I have not ever defended the manner in which the IRS generated the keywords in the BOLO. However, saying they used inappropriate criteria to determine which groups to investigate does not mean that groups were improperly investigated. These groups and many others deserved to be investigated.

    Maybe they deserved it and maybe they didn't, but you're not the avenging tax angel so you don't get to decide.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    It is possible to disagree with someone without having to attack their character. just FYI

    I have not ever defended the manner in which the IRS generated the keywords in the BOLO. However, saying they used inappropriate criteria to determine which groups to investigate does not mean that groups were improperly investigated. These groups and many others deserved to be investigated.
    They were improperly targetted and from what I can tell, they were just harrassed and never investigated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Wait a minute....That isn't what your own article provided said....It said...

    "501(c)4

    May engage in political activities, as long as these activities do not become their primary purpose

    CAN Endorse Candidates..."
    The IRS apologists don't even know what a 501 (c) (4) is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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