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Thread: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

  1. #331
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    And both sides do it, but not to the same extent. Conservatives accounted for 90% of non-disclosed donor spending in 2010, and 85% in 2012. In contrast Liberals accounted for 8% and 11% respectively.
    2012 Outside Spending, by Group | OpenSecrets
    Your point is correct that both sides do it but justifying one over the other based on volume of money seems prejudiced. Based on the list you posted there are ~138 included and ~57 of these are labeled 'liberal'. Considering this represents 41% of the GROUPS engaged in these activities why would you single out one significantly more than the other? Or is you argument that since they collect more they should be more heavily scrutinized? Further IF the ratio of those groups 'targeted' had been closer to 60/40 do you think this 'scandal' would be as notorious?
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    That's enough for me
    who cares

    it's not enough for holder (or lynch or mccaskill or baucus or levin or neal or cummings...)

    unlike you (and me), they matter

    thursday: Conservative group lawsuit targets IRS employees personally | The Daily Caller

    True the Vote is not only suing the IRS, but also taking action against the IRS employees who participated in the harassment of the voter education and election monitoring organization. Those employees could personally be held liable to pay damages that would be established in litigation.

    True the Votes’ lead counsel, Cleta Mitchell, explained in an email to The Daily Caller that she does not know whether the employees, if found to be liable in the lawsuit True the Vote filed against the IRS and its employees Tuesday, would pay out of pocket or take other avenues such as accessing union funds or homeowners insurance. Either way, she noted, the group will pursue its action.

    “[T]heir unlawful actions caused my clients to have to come up with the money to deal with their demands…out of their own personal finances… They didn’t seem to worry / care about that,” Mitchell wrote to TheDC. “Government employees never do care about the costs to private citizens of their burdensome demands….”

    Founder and president of True the Vote Catherine Engelbrecht explained in a conference call Thursday morning that in July of 2010 her organization filed an application for tax exemption. The request has been in limbo since then.

    “During that time we have been subjected to multiple rounds of questions, all told I would say in excess of several hundred questions and thousands of documents provided back to the IRS,” she said. “With no real end in sight.”

    After her organization’s most recent round of questions following the November 2012 elections, Engelbrecht said that she and Mitchell began discussing other legal options.

    “That ultimately led us to a place where we felt like we had no other options but to file suit against the IRS and to ask the courts to now get involved to grant our long-awaited tax exempt status,” she said adding she also hoped to reveal the IRS employees’ involvement in her organization’s plight.

    True the Vote filed a lawsuit against the IRS and some of its employees on Tuesday.

    Mitchell explained that she and Engelbrecht had been discussing suing the IRS to obtain tax-exempt status even before the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration released his report on the IRS’ targeting of conservative groups.

    “An applicant for 501(c)(3) status is allowed under federal law to go to court if the IRS has not issued a letter of determination within 270 days, so we were well past that deadline,” she said.

    Mitchell said that they have also added charges to the complaint seeking to address the potential violation of a federal statute that prohibits IRS employees from unauthorized inspection or dissemination of confidential taxpayer information.

    “It is our claim, in the suit, that by virtue of the IRS’ demand and receipt of confidential information from True the Vote, which was not necessary for purposes of ascertaining whether or not the organization qualifies for exempt status, that that constitutes an unlawful inspection of True the Votes’ proprietary information as a taxpayer,” Mitchell said, adding that they are seeking $1,000 per unlawful inspection, but do not yet know how many unlawful inspections the IRS made.

    The third charge True the Vote is pursuing against the IRS is a claim for a redress of True the Vote’s constitutional right to free speech and association under the First Amendment.

    “That violation of our Constitutional rights does constitute a civil rights claim, we are arguing, and we have sued these IRS agents and employees not only in their official capacities but in their individual and personal capacities for engaging in this conspiracy to violate True the Vote’s rights,” she said.

    Mitchell explained that through this lawsuit they hope to get real answers.

    “We hope to get through discovery the answers to the questions of what they were doing, why they were doing it, who was doing it, and by naming these individual agents assigned to True the Vote’s case or application, we’ll find out who told them what it was that they were supposed to be doing,” she added.

    “Once the IRS denies an application then you have the remedy to take that denial to federal court and have it reviewed by the court and either affirmed or overturned. But just holding all these 501(c)(4) organizations’ applications in limbo, it denied the groups the opportunity to go to court and have the court sort it out. So all the 501(c)(4) organizations, and there were hundreds of them, are still sitting out there. Those applications have not been granted for most of the organizations who applied since this unlawful process was put in place by the IRS, so this is not in the past tense,” she said.

    Anyone whose name True the Vote knew, who had potentially touched the group’s application is named in the suit, Mitchell said. She added that as they learn of more individuals who were involved, True the Vote and its lawyers will add those people to the suit as well.

    Engelbrecht has explained that since filing the group’s application, her family and family business have been audited by the IRS twice, subject to two unscheduled audits by ATF, one by OSHA, and the Texas-branch of the EPA.

    “All of that has happened in a very short amount of time and in my opinion it really begs the question, what is so different now that was not different before we filed that application?”

  3. #333
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    LOL!

    is eric holder paranoid?

    or manipulated?
    No, people that get their news from CNS, the Daily Caller or WND (or Daily KOS, to be fair and balanced) would fall into that class....

  4. #334
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Lois Lerner went in front of Levin and McCain, and somehow failed to mention any of this
    she sure did

    LOL!

    so did miller and shulman

    except she never testified before mccain---you don't know what you're talking about

    why would anyone want to STOP this search for the truth?

    it won't help you, 74% of americans want answers

    seeya in committee, bring your lawyer

  5. #335
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    No
    well, wouldn't he have to be?

    DOJ opens criminal probe into IRS - The Hill

    people that get their news from CNS, the Daily Caller
    who, holder?

    how bout wapo?

    Internal IRS probe cited same problems with approach to conservative groups in May 2012 - Washington Post

    because substantial bias is, after all, substantial bias

    maybe that's why obama fired miller

  6. #336
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    "I did nothing wrong, and I plead the 5th so don't ask me any questions!"

    Seems immature.

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Your point is correct that both sides do it but justifying one over the other based on volume of money seems prejudiced. Based on the list you posted there are ~138 included and ~57 of these are labeled 'liberal'. Considering this represents 41% of the GROUPS engaged in these activities why would you single out one significantly more than the other? Or is you argument that since they collect more they should be more heavily scrutinized? Further IF the ratio of those groups 'targeted' had been closer to 60/40 do you think this 'scandal' would be as notorious?
    1). Liberal groups camouflaged their names so it's hard to identify them based on name. Shape-Shifting by Liberal Dark Money Groups Seems Meant to Confuse - OpenSecrets Blog
    2). Conservative groups that were approved outspent liberal groups 34:1. Conservative Groups Granted Exemption Vastly Outspent Liberal Ones - OpenSecrets Blog
    3). The amount of liberal spending by 501c groups has been fairly constant, the increase is almost entirely among conservatives.
    4). We don't know how many liberal groups were investigated, but I'd expect unbiased investigations to yield something like 200 conservative groups compared to 50 Liberal.


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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    1). Liberal groups camouflaged their names so it's hard to identify them based on name. Shape-Shifting by Liberal Dark Money Groups Seems Meant to Confuse - OpenSecrets Blog
    2). Conservative groups that were approved outspent liberal groups 34:1. Conservative Groups Granted Exemption Vastly Outspent Liberal Ones - OpenSecrets Blog
    3). The amount of liberal spending by 501c groups has been fairly constant, the increase is almost entirely among conservatives.
    4). We don't know how many liberal groups were investigated, but I'd expect unbiased investigations to yield something like 200 conservative groups compared to 50 Liberal.
    ? so you retain the premise that 'targeting' should be based on money VOLUME and not number of organizations?

    Doesn't it seem plausible that the volume spent will be greater by the current 'minority party' as they have more 'motivation'?

    And no, we don't know 'how many liberal groups were investigated' but I can only presume that if the numbers were more judicious it would be argued currently (and legitimately) as it would certainly deflect the 'targeting' assertion.
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Liberal groups camouflaged their names
    nonsense, the irs didn't even try

    groups "with names including words like progress or progressive" were "given a pass"

    usatoday above

    the increase is almost entirely among conservatives
    you're defending an agency that has already, a dozen days to sunday, admitted its wrongdoing

    AP: IRS apologizes for inappropriate targeting of conservatives

    at this point it's a question of character

    cuz if the irs has more integrity than you...

  10. #340
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    ? so you retain the premise that 'targeting' should be based on money VOLUME and not number of organizations?

    Doesn't it seem plausible that the volume spent will be greater by the current 'minority party' as they have more 'motivation'?

    And no, we don't know 'how many liberal groups were investigated' but I can only presume that if the numbers were more judicious it would be argued currently (and legitimately) as it would certainly deflect the 'targeting' assertion.
    I'd argue that we're talking about 501(c)(4)'s incorrectly being used to funnel dark money into politics. For whatever reason, there has been a huge increase in spending by conservative groups over their historical norm, while liberal groups have remained mainly constant. Given that, I'd expect more conservative groups to be investigated.

    The problem has been with the coverage. The targeting has only referred to using keywords that are seemingly conservative (it appears that liberal groups have been using conservative sounding names). However, that's just one of many criteria. But it's much simpler to turn it into a political football.

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