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Thread: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

  1. #131
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    why do talk before you read, why do you talk more than you read

    that's backwards

    Legal experts are questioning whether Lerner’s Fifth Amendment protections dissolved once she began talking on Wednesday, as Issa argues.

    “I don’t think a brief introductory preface to her formal invocation of the privilege is a waiver,” said Stan Brand, who was the general counsel for the House of Representatives from 1976 to 1983 and works on ethics issues.

    He said the bigger problem for Lerner may be that she has made herself available to Congress in the past.

    “The more serious question is whether any of her earlier congressional appearances before other committees constituted a waiver,” Brand said. “That in turn may depend on whether any of those appearances were ‘compelled’ — that is, pursuant to a subpoena.”

    He said the committee may ultimately pursue a contempt charge if Lerner continues to refuse to talk.

    “Bottom line,” Brand said, “I think we will hear no more from Ms. Lerner” unless she is provided immunity.
    IRS scandal hearing: lerner to be called back - POLITICO
    Last edited by The Prof; 05-22-13 at 07:45 PM.

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    This is not isolated to the GOP, not when thr Senate is conducting hearings also.

    How many times do we need to here top officials in the IRS and DOJ say "...I dont know ? " before someone demands to know why they are either so corrupt or so incompetent ?

    Truth is, the IRS exposed this on their own with a set-up question. NOW theyr'e trying to play dumb because we and members from both sides of the aisle are not satisfied with their claims of total ignorance ?
    Well those are political issues not legal ones. Politically if they want the truth, they need to give the woman immunity and not pursue this silly contempt crap. They are setting her up to be the political fall guy. If they want the truth or think it goes beyond her, then they need to lather on the honey. I am not defending her so much as I am the right she is invoking. Trying to coerce people away from their invocation of their rights is why police will keep a suspect up 20 plus hours with nothing to drink or eat to break them down. Protecting the integrity of the 5th amendment is a hell of a lot more important than this, even if Barack Obama personally kept the applications in his desk drawer for when the campaign staff came by.

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by trfjr View Post
    you can only plead the fifth to keep from incriminating yourself in a crime. so she is admitting there was a crime
    Sounds like the "...if you have nothing to hide..." claptrap.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  4. #134
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Well those are political issues not legal ones. Politically if they want the truth, they need to give the woman immunity and not pursue this silly contempt crap. They are setting her up to be the political fall guy. If they want the truth or think it goes beyond her, then they need to lather on the honey. I am not defending her so much as I am the right she is invoking. Trying to coerce people away from their invocation of their rights is why police will keep a suspect up 20 plus hours with nothing to drink or eat to break them down. Protecting the integrity of the 5th amendment is a hell of a lot more important than this, even if Barack Obama personally kept the applications in his desk drawer for when the campaign staff came by.
    What you saw this morning was the beginning of a negotiation. She will get immunity.
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  5. #135
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Well those are political issues not legal ones. Politically if they want the truth, they need to give the woman immunity and not pursue this silly contempt crap. They are setting her up to be the political fall guy. If they want the truth or think it goes beyond her, then they need to lather on the honey. I am not defending her so much as I am the right she is invoking. Trying to coerce people away from their invocation of their rights is why police will keep a suspect up 20 plus hours with nothing to drink or eat to break them down. Protecting the integrity of the 5th amendment is a hell of a lot more important than this, even if Barack Obama personally kept the applications in his desk drawer for when the campaign staff came by.
    She had every right to invoke the fifth amendment, but it would have been nice if she left her soap box at home. It sure didn't do the Obama administration any favors because the thought of a powerful Govt organization like the IRS using it's power to selectively target American citizens really pisses people off and that's from both parties.

    Americans targeted by the IRS either justifiably or because of their political persuasion aren't given the luxury of " pleading the Fifth" and with holding information.

    Now if you think the 5th Amendment is important enough to be fought for then the first amendment should be pretty damn important too not too mention Congresses Constitutional Power of Oversight.

    Lois Lerner could probably continue to plead the fifth since technically it's not a Criminal Court and because her monologue didn't influence any jurors or judges that would determine her guilt or innocence.
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    She was dismissed and told that she may be recalled after the committee consults with the DoJ concerning her plea against self-incrimination. Apparently by making a full opening statement to the committee, and then invoking her right preventing self-incrimination, she may actually be compelled to testify, with or without immunity.

    She stated that she didn't break any rules, regulations, or laws, however, if she thinks there is a remote posibility that she actually did break a law that she doesn't know about, or didn't know about at the time, that would explain her pleading the 5th.
    got you
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    Evidently not, she is being called back. And she refuses this time she should be charged with obstruction. Then they can call her higher ups. And if they refuse they should also be charged with obstruction. And so on until someone fesses up or they are all in prison.
    Things change all the time. Stay tuned.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Since she started under Bush, I think he should pardon her like he did Libby. Hiding things got you the Medal of Freedom under Bush.

    Irrelevant.

    What are you going to be wrong about next.
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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    you are probably not aware, thru no real fault of yours, there being so much of such heavy significance flying thru the air these days...

    but what i'm going to tell you here is in itself a bombshell, i learned about it last nite (i'll find you that link too, bear with me)

    evil darrell issa learned yesterday from interviewing one holly paz (remember that name) that independent of the tigta, inspector general report, the irs in may of 2012---one year ago---concluded an independent internal review that found "significant problems in the review process and a substantial bias against conservative groups"

    Internal IRS probe cited same problems with approach to conservative groups in May 2012 - WaPo

    what's more, another nancy j marks (senior technical adviser at irs) on may 3, 2012, gave a "presentation" to commissioner steven miller, laying out in full ms marks' findings of "significant problems" and "substantial bias"

    mr miller has lied to congress ever since, he's still lying today, and it's really quite remarkable that no one in the cummings caucus, none in the carney crowd, even try to deny it

    how can you defend this stuff?

    Tempers flared in a House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing Wednesday, with members on both sides of the aisle castigating the Internal Revenue Service for targeting conservative groups with special scrutiny, and then hiding the practice from Congress.

    Rep. Darrel Issa, the committee's chairman, said that the committee learned just yesterday that the IRS completed its own investigation a year before a Treasury Department Inspector General report was completed.

    But despite the IRS recognizing in May 2012 that its employees were treating right-wing groups differently from other organizations, Issa said, IRS personnel withheld those conclusions from legislators.

    'Just yesterday the committee interviewed Holly Paz, the director of exempt organizations, rulings and agreements, division of the IRS,' Issa said. 'While a tremendous amount of attention is centered about the Inspector General's report, or investigation, the committee has learned from Ms. Paz that she in fact participated in an IRS internal investigation that concluded in May of 2012 - May 3 of 2012 - and found essentially the same thing that Mr. George found more than a year later.'
    Congress hosts IRS bloodbath, slamming tax authorities for partisan targeting of conservatives, as one official refuses to answer questions | Mail Online

    another bomb in the mail:

    Issa then asked if [Lerner] would answer questions about her previous testimony before Congress.

    'I decline to answer that question, for reasons I have already given.'
    congressman lynch, blue collar south boston (many of his constituents were badly injured by the tsarnaevs last month) went off on the irs office manager who's not good at math:

    "if you refuse to answer you will leave us no choice but to ask for a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of this"

    in which case, the congressman continued, "there will be hell to pay"

    lynch turned to former commissioner shulman who "adamantly denied" any targeting in sworn testimony in ways and means last year: "you misled congress, make no question about it"

    "you did nothing, you abdicated your responsibility

    bottom line---holly paz, acting director of ruling and agreements, informed evil darrell issa---for the first time, monday---that separate from tigta, the irs conducted its own investigation... SIX MONTHS BEFORE THE ELECTION

    at the other end of the fish, the head: why can't barack hussein obama say when he first learned, why does he still insist he read it in the paper?

    how could barack obama's chief of staff know while the president remains ignorant?

    why DID obama's irs go after the very people the president most despises?

    stay tuned
    Last edited by The Prof; 05-22-13 at 08:50 PM.

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    Re: IRS official Lois Lerner to take the Fifth

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Well you clearly are the one who does not understand. 2 U.S.C.A. 192: "any person who is summoned before Congress who "willfully makes default, or who, having appeared, refuses to answer any question pertinent to the question under inquiry" shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to a maximum $1,000 fine and 12 month imprisonment." That doesn't sound so indefinite to me. The 5th Amendment is pretty damned sacrosanct in law independent of political bias so I doubt she would get the year. You seem to forget that Eric Holder has been found in contempt of Congress, and the last time I checked, he is still walking around a free man.
    In most cases, the judge will give you several chances to answer questions if you refuse to testify. If you continually refuse, you may be charged with contempt of court, which could land you in prison with a hefty fine to pay the court. It is best that you don't risk a contempt of court charge. Not only does it go on your criminal record, but they can also hold you until you finally agree to testify.

    What Happens If You Refuse to Testify in Court - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

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