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Thread: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

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    Re: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    His comment could as easily be taken as a compliment rather than as a criticism.

    This is the epitome of freedom of choice. When I get "the phone call", I hope my state will offer me the same loving kindness to allow me to skip the suffering.
    Sure, but you know damn well what he meant. Accepting the notion of assisted suicide is wildly different from actually being "pro-death."

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    Re: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Not stupidity at all, unless you are talking about the pro-euthanasia movement.
    I was obviously talking about your comment, which I addressed in a fairly direct manner. Do try to keep up. Also, if you'd stop conflating humane treatment of terminally ill patients with being "pro-death" that'd probably be a good thing as well.

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    Re: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    I would not rather they die that way, but pain can usually be managed short of killing someone. Either way, the same argument could be made for the poor--why not euthanize them to put them out of their misery?






    Not stupidity at all, unless you are talking about the pro-euthanasia movement.






    As would abortion, but with abortion the child has no choice and with euthanasia if someone really wanted to die they could do it without the doctor. Terminal patients I have known would sign just about anything you put in front of them and not even remember it 10 minutes later, so I do not consider them legally competent in the end and I do not trust that some doctors/family members won't lure them into signing.
    Thats what scares me. A legal way for money hungrey people to manipulate their way into people suiciding through the system. If someone is in so much pain they want to die I dont think the law really means much... Making suicide illegal is one of the dumbest things in the world but making it legal also sounds pretty stupid to me. Its just one of those things that people do outside of the law. And its such a heavy decision that I think it should stay that way.

    There is a huge difference in letting someone bleed out because they will die in 30 seconds and putting a pillow over grandmas head because shes tired of you having to clean up her poop.
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    Re: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I was obviously talking about your comment, which I addressed in a fairly direct manner. Do try to keep up. Also, if you'd stop conflating humane treatment of terminally ill patients with being "pro-death" that'd probably be a good thing as well.
    It is pro-death--how much more direct can one be than that. There is nothing that prevents a terminal patient from killing themselves now. In fact, they usually have enough meds to kill an elephant if they so desire. What the law does is now allows relatives and doctors to coerce the person into signing a piece of paper, legalizing their extermination. Whatever happened to that "Do no harm" thing in the medical code of ethics?

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    Re: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    It is pro-death--how much more direct can one be than that.
    Not really, no. Whether this law exists or not, the patient involved is going to die. That's the whole issue. The question is how much control you think they should have over their own deaths. My answer is "as much as possible" and your answer is "only if they can pull it off themselves"; which leads us to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    There is nothing that prevents a terminal patient from killing themselves now.
    Except, very possibly, the nature of their illness and the degree to which they have physical control over their own bodies; which is exactly why people support such laws to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    What the law does is now allows relatives and doctors to cooerce the person into signing a piece of paper, legalizing their extermination. Whatever happened to that "Do no harm" thing in the medical code of ethics?
    Who said anything about coercion? And how is keeping someone on life support for weeks or months in constant helpless pain doing no harm?
    Last edited by Aderleth; 05-21-13 at 07:11 PM.

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    Re: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

    Actually, I didn't know that until a subsequent post. I've generally found Mr. F. to be pretty logical. I mistook this for edgy humor since I always viewed his a "Libertarinish" and thus amenable to personal choice.

    I'm pro-death and proud of it. Death is final and should be applied very, very thoughtfully in situations where it is an option.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Sure, but you know damn well what he meant. Accepting the notion of assisted suicide is wildly different from actually being "pro-death."

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    Re: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Actually, I didn't know that until a subsequent post. I've generally found Mr. F. to be pretty logical. I mistook this for edgy humor since I always viewed his a "Libertarinish" and thus amenable to personal choice.

    I'm pro-death and proud of it. Death is final and should be applied very, very thoughtfully in situations where it is an option.
    Fair enough. My experience with "Mr. F" has been more of a mixed bag.

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    Re: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

    What I like about this legislation os that you can get the right tools for the job and because it is a process, you will leave less grief behind.

    Think about those who desperately want to die but don't know how and don't want their insurance invalidated leaving their families to suffer. This is the right way for those people and I consider this to be true progress.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Fair enough. My experience with "Mr. F" has been more of a mixed bag.

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    Re: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Not really, no. Whether this law exists or not, the patient involved is going to die. That's the whole issue. The question is how much control you think they should have over their own deaths. My answer is "as much as possible" and your answer is "only if they can pull it off themselves"; which leads us to...



    Except, very possibly, the nature of their illness and the degree to which they have physical control over their own bodies; which is exactly why people support such laws to begin with.



    Who said anything about coercion? And how is keeping someone on life support for weeks or months in constant helpless pain doing no harm?

    strawman at its finest. You can execute a DNR or Medical Directive today and never be put on life support "for weeks or months". They even make med alert bracelets for that. As a matter of public policy, euthanasia laws throw us so far down that slippery slope there will be no coming back. I only support death penalty in cases where I believe that the defendant is a clear danger to other inmates, guards, and/or the community if they escape; I only support abortion after the baby has a heartbeat when either the baby dies in the womb or the mother's life would be saved; and oppose euthanasia because it serves no purpose. If you think daughters are not going to talk dad into signing the form so they can schedule his death when its convenient for her or that doctors won't get patients to sign off because that is what renegade doctors think is best then you are kidding yourself. Kevorkian "assisted" people who were not even terminally ill or suffering any sort of pain whatsoever.

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    Re: Vermont Legalizes Assisted Suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    strawman at its finest. You can execute a DNR or Medical Directive today and never be put on life support "for weeks or months". They even make med alert bracelets for that. As a matter of public policy, euthanasia laws throw us so far down that slippery slope there will be no coming back. I only support death penalty in cases where I believe that the defendant is a clear danger to other inmates, guards, and/or the community if they escape; I only support abortion after the baby has a heartbeat when either the baby dies in the womb or the mother's life would be saved; and oppose euthanasia because it serves no purpose. If you think daughters are not going to talk dad into signing the form so they can schedule his death when its convenient for her or that doctors won't get patients to sign off because that is what renegade doctors think is best then you are kidding yourself. Kevorkian "assisted" people who were not even terminally ill or suffering any sort of pain whatsoever.
    Yeah, you brought up coercion, so my addressing it is in no way a strawman, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you accidentally included it in bold. Of course, yes, some people will try to hasten the deaths of "loved" ones. That happens already in a wide variety of ways, and is one of several reasons why laws like this one have safeguards in place.

    That reason, by itself, is nowhere near compelling enough to refuse to allow people agency over their own lives.

    And yes, there are plenty of people who live helplessly for weeks or months in constant pain, in contexts in which a DNR is not going to help them. This website has several examples: Personal stories - Dignity in Dying

    So I guess you've got to ask yourself, why are you against freedom of choice? You started your comments on this thread with a partisan statement, so now I'll include mine. I thought right-wingers were supposed to be all about personal freedom. But I guess sometimes it's about stepping in to substitute your judgment over the judgment of someone who's dying. Have I got that right? You can tell them when they're no longer allowed to chose how to live, or how to die? You know better than they do?

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